Kim Howard 00:05
Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association or EMDRIA. I am your host Kim Howard. In this episode we’re discussing staying centered and an uncentered world. Today’s guest is EMDR therapist Rebecca Kase. Rebecca is based in California and has extensive experience working with veterans self care and incorporating yoga into her client sessions. Let’s get started. Today we are speaking with an EMDR therapist, trainer and consultant Rebecca is the owner of Rebecca Lase and company, and EMDR training and consultation provider. She specializes in yoga therapy polyvagal theory EMDR. And the importance of therapist self care. But she has a clever reframe on and she’ll share with you. Thank you Rebecca case for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

Rebecca Kase 00:54
Thanks so much Kim. I am so honored to be here.

Kim Howard 00:58
We appreciate all the work that you do to helping people heal. So tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming an EMDR therapist and your experience using EMDR therapy.

Rebecca Kase 01:08
Yeah, it’s been it has been a journey that’s certainly a good word to describe it. So I was trained in EMDR when I was in grad school, and I am so grateful I started my EMDR training way back then taking EMDR training when I was such a new therapist really influenced my entire clinical development as a professional because I learned AIP as a baby therapist, I feel that it had a lot of benefit in just shaping my skills as you know how I case conceptualize and you clients and symptoms and diagnoses. So learning EMDR when I was such a young therapist allowed me to really get curious about what’s happening with my clients nervous systems and not get distracted by symptoms or DSM diagnoses and qualifiers. So I consider myself to be a neuro-informed therapist because I integrate a lot of neuroscience that I’ve learned from EMDR and polyvagal theory, somatic approaches and yoga therapy and interpersonal neurobiology. And I believe that getting trained in EMDR, so early really helped to shape this clinical experience. Now, that was 15-16 years ago, and I left grad school and started working in community mental health. And at the time, EMDR was not a recognized evidence-based therapy back then still. So I was really pushing to be able to practice EMDR and Community Mental Health and the Mental Health Center I was working for wasn’t allowing therapists to practice. So I was a new social worker, and I’m a redhead and I find myself to really uphold those stereotypes of being a fiery advocate. And so I pushed back, I really look back and kind of laugh at myself being a brand new therapist in the field unlicensed, really not having developed my professional self, I was just like gung ho to change the world. I really started advocating, I teamed up with one of my colleagues and one of my long-term friends now, Laurie Pereira, who works with hap actually, and we work together to really get EMDR approved at that agency to start practicing and they approved it finally with enough I don’t know if maybe they just want us to be quiet eventually. But even then we had a lot of restrictions we could only use EMDR with clients with PTSD, only outpatient clients, clients who had tried other therapies and you know, it hadn’t been successful things that we know today just don’t really stand up for who makes a good candidate you know, like a good clients to qualify for EMDR therapy. So since then, I’ve worked in a lot of different settings. I’ve worked for a couple of community mental health centers, I did some international work with the Divi nonprofit in Bosnia, I have worked in private practice and shelters and nursing homes and hospitals. I’ve worked in management and leader positions. But no matter what position I found myself in if it’s direct clinical care, or managing or leading teams, I’ve always really valued the importance of maintaining a caseload so that I can continue to practice EMDR and stay sharp as a clinician, I now have a small caseload primarily my my day to day is spent in consultations with therapists and in training EMDR basic training and advanced trainings, but I still have a small caseload. I mostly see veterans at this time, and I work with a few women who are healing from their complex trauma histories. My my EMDR journey was unique in that while I went to EMDR training, and I had heard about this amazing therapy that could be incredibly helpful for treating PTSD. When I started out of my journey as a baby therapist, I really had no intention to get certified or become a consultant and I just kind of left with that where I am now. While I was in private practice, I started going to consultation groups in efforts to try and buffer the isolation of private practice and my consultant at that time approached me and said, You really seem to know your stuff, and you’re really passionate about this, I really recommend you get certified. And I was like, Oh, I never thought about that. Okay, so I went on to get certified. And then I became a consultant. I’ve been consulting since 2013. And I had the amazing honor and opportunity to also serve as a volunteer for a number of years with hap the humanitarian assistance program, nonprofit EMDR training group. And I started out with them as a facilitator, and then had the honor of being invited to become a trainer with them to have such a warm space in my heart for hap, I just loved my experience and being part of such an important mission. And I made so many friends and amazing colleagues there, and I no longer volunteer with them, I kind of did my time there, I volunteered for about five years with them. And then I went on to developing my own training business. And so I own Rebecca case, and CO we are a pretty large EMDR training group. And we provide consultation, I have about 12 faculty members, and they’re all just some of the most incredible people that I have ever known and certainly I’ve ever worked with. And we train in a really different way for most professional trainings out there. Because our number one mantra is to create shame free spaces for learning too often, we go to trainings, and we may feel unsafe or vulnerable, not able to ask questions or be curious may feel judged or criticized. And you know, EMDR training is just such a dynamic experience, because you’re not just learning EMDR, but you’re also practicing with each other. And we know that feeling shamed or overly vulnerable from polyvagal theory and all of our neuroscience is just really counterproductive to our learning. So we try and incorporate a lot of skills to keep people engaged, keep your nervous systems regulated as we spend so much time talking about trauma. And we do this with humor and play and yoga and polyvagal theory and just a lot of realness. Amongst our training team, we all try and show up with our real authentic selves. So I started this group, kind of like when I started EMDR training, I didn’t have these big intentions. When I started EMDR training, I thought I just do a couple of trainings a year just by myself, you know, like 10 people or something that really quickly got away from me, our trainings kind of blew up. And we had lots of people wanting to come and quickly at weightless. So we had to grow. And you know, the universe just had other intentions. And, and I just couldn’t have planned it any better. If if I had done it myself. So I’m so grateful. And so my journey has just been pretty dynamic over 16 years now is when I started in my first basic training, and I use it every day, I’m using EMDR therapy, at my knowledge,

Kim Howard 07:32
that’s awesome. That’s a great story. I like how I think sometimes your when your story about you were new on the job, and you kept pushing for this, you know, to add EMDR trained to your services at this community center. And I feel like a lot of times you need somebody to come in who’s new, and maybe not quite as experienced as other people to look at things differently. Because they have a different lens, right. And for them to offer up suggestions and ideas. And it’s good that you guys kept pushing, pushing that, you know, especially good for the client who benefited from that, because sometimes it just takes an outsider to come in and say, Hey, I think you should do this, instead of that, or this and that, you know, and then you know, people have to be open to making those changes. So it’s good that you did that. And it’s good that they were finally open after I’m sure what was felt like months and years of pushing. I don’t know how long it took. But yeah,

Rebecca Kase 08:21
it took I think it took us about a year or two years. And I just look back and just think wow, that was really bold, Rebecca, but

Kim Howard 08:30
Well, I think people are often afraid of, of new things, right? Nobody likes change, and nobody likes. Especially I think in an experience situation, if you’re when you’re professional, nobody who’s experienced like somebody new telling them what they should be doing, right. And so there’s a little bit of dynamic play going on interpersonally. But it’s good that you kept that up. Because I think those kinds of approaches with anything helps make things change for the better. What is your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy? My

Rebecca Kase 08:58
favorite part by far are those spontaneous AHA cars that clients get when they’re reprocessing targets. It always just gives me goosebumps and leaves me feeling so humbled when clients have those moments of, you know, saying like, Oh my gosh, it’s not my fault, or Oh, wow, I did do everything I needed to do to protect myself. And they just have these spontaneous moments of of adaptive shifts that come from them that come from their brain that come from their nervous system, which are so much more powerful than us saying, Did you know that you did everything you should have in that moment and that you were having a trauma reaction, you know, it just doesn’t, it doesn’t stick the same. So to witness the power of the human spirit and the nervous system to heal and make adaptive meaning. I mean, sometimes you just wonder how you got so lucky to be able to witness people’s intimate healing processes. And I think that EMDR therapy gives us this whole other layer of depth into just witnessing this big profound change than if we’re using more of our kind of traditional talk therapy. psychodynamic approaches. I mean, it’s really a gift. When I have a client or someone in training, who makes these huge gains these big aha was, and has a life changing shift. I mean, that’s just enough to keep you coming back to this really strange and hard job of being a therapist in such high times of burnout. You know, it’s those moments and, and in our EMDR trainings, you know, when we have cohorts of 5060 people, when we check in as a training team on their practicum experience, and hear all these clinicians like having these moments of, of shift and healing, not only that helps them to really understand the power of EMDR. And the importance of the therapist, just getting out of the way and let the nervous system do its thing. But it also just inspires me every single training session to leave those knowing that not only did we teach people EMDR therapy, but we also are sending these people out in the world a little bit more healed. Hopefully, I just find that there’s so much wisdom as well to take from those spontaneous AHA is that the nervous system just has the innate capacity to heal just like our body does. And AIP really emphasizes this and it’s why therapists are taught in EMDR to just get out of the way Zipit you know, this is not the place where your talk therapist, your clients nervous system has the capacity to heal, it just needs a little nurturing and support maybe some guidance from you. But you aren’t the one who heals. It’s the client’s nervous system that does the healing. And I think for some therapists that can feel really terrifying, especially when we’re first learning EMDR. Like, what do you mean, it’s not about what I say or what I do, or, you know, when we’re really stuck in our cognitive brain, and it helps us to feel a sense of control. But when you can really embrace it’s not about me, it’s not about how well I can regurgitate this information I learned in school or, you know, do I deliver just the right mic drop intervention at the right time, it’s really about I need to hold space for this client so that their nervous system can do what it was designed and wired to do. And I think when we can embrace that with humility, and a sense of just just wonder, and some freedom, like I don’t have to work so hard here, it’s not my cognitive brain that does the healing, it really just allows you and your client to just drop into this whole new depth of powerful powerful work.

Kim Howard 12:15
Excellent. So let’s piggyback on that. So talk to us about what successes you’ve seen using EMDR therapy.

Rebecca Kase 12:21
Oh, gosh, yeah, that’s such a big question over 16 years of experience. So I think, you know, I’ve used EMDR, I’ve worked with kids, I’ve worked with adolescents. I’ve worked with adults, I’ve worked with older adults. And I’ve seen successes with all of those populations, because we know that there’s there’s no rule out for EMDR therapy, there’s no age or social identity, that’s a rule out for EMDR therapy, everybody can benefit from it, because everybody has memories that are fired and wired together. But some of the most powerful successes that come to my mind as I reflect on this question, certainly I’ve been working with veterans last couple of years didn’t always used to be the population that I worked with. Again, it was just kind of one of those things the universe, like and now we’re going to learn how to work with veterans. And I love working with veterans, because oh, gosh, I bring in my yoga woowoo self and so like what, but I can I use yoga therapy a lot in phase two preparation to help my clients learn how to regulate their nervous system and how to feel feelings and feel their body and I vets like love yoga, they’ll come and like, Can we can we lay on the ground today? And do that, that that stuff that we do? You know, can we do some yoga today, and so many of them, you know, I’ll add in resourcing, as we’re doing yoga, add some bilateral stimulation to enhance the experience. And so often we get to the end of our session and they’re on the ground and I’m like, why don’t you just stay there and enjoy this and and we’ll email the schedule. They’re like, Yeah, I’m just gonna take a nap now. So that that always just feels so good to see them get to that space, but then you know, using EMDR to reprocess combat trauma or so many of them come of course with their own childhood trauma and, you know, other experiences they’ve had that are held in their nervous system. And you know, so many veterans I’ve worked with that successfully discharged that we say wow, there’s, there’s really nothing else that’s a goal for them to work on right now that they’re identifying or that i i can even share, like, Hey, I think I think it might be good to address this. So that always feels really powerful and humbling to work with this population that tends to just sacrifice so much. I’ve also really enjoyed using EMDR with chronic pain presentations. One of my favorite EMDR experiences are maybe I shouldn’t say favorite, but one that I just really hold closely in my heart and I can still remember pretty strongly to this day was back in that first mental health center. We gotten EMDR approved and I had a client referred to me who had phantom limb syndrome. So back in that first community mental health center that I worked at, I had a client referred to me with phantom limb pain, and he had experienced a really terrible accident that had led to this chronic pain condition. Sherman and and was just on a lot of opiates was using massive amounts of marijuana to try and regulate his pain. And still on a day to day basis, his pain on a scale of zero to 10 was about a six to an eight daily. Even with narcotics and marijuana. And I, I’ve been practicing yoga for about 20 years now. So I brought in some of my yoga knowledge in that time to help resource to help him teach, learn how to breathe and try and regulate his pain a little better. I did some research on how to work with phantom limb pain and kind of came up with some resourcing techniques based on what I had read because there wasn’t really anything out there about how to use EMDR for phantom limb pain again, this was before EMDR was recognized as evidence based. So nobody was talking about how to use it with chronic pain, but I just felt like it could be so I came up with some resourcing techniques that included him wearing his prosthetics prosthetic legs and stretching his body and the way he felt like his legs needed to stretch and really having him watch what that looks like to trigger those mirror neurons. And we added some BLS to that we came up with some resourcing techniques for him to practice at home. Based on what I had learned about phantom limb pain, I knew that mirror neurons were very much used in mirrors were actually used in the treatment of phantom limb pain. And so I said, Hey, if you’d be willing, I just have an idea. We can try it, it might work it might not. He said, Sure. I’m game. And so we had his dad record his legs and his feet and his toes moving and stretching. And the way that this client said, my legs and my feet and my toes feel like they need to do this. And that’s part of my chronic pain. Like, I feel like I need to wiggle my toes, I feel like I need to move my feet, I feel like I need to stretch my legs. But I can’t do that because he had lost both of his legs. And so his dad recorded his legs and his toes and his feet doing that. And I taught him how to self tap on himself. And he would go home and he would watch on on a computer or on a TV. I can’t remember what he was using. He’d watch this video of his dad moving his legs and his feet, you know, as if we recorded it in a way as if you were just like looking down your legs that were set up on a on a on a stool, right? I talked him out of self tap on himself. He was like Rebecca, that really worked. I don’t know what we’re doing. But it was really helpful. It’s like, I don’t know exactly what we’re doing either. But if it makes you feel better, let’s do it.

Kim Howard 17:23
Wonderful.

Rebecca Kase 17:25
Yeah. So we were able to get his pain down to a little bit more of a tolerable level. And then we dove into processing targets. So we process the actual accident itself, the various points of that accident that we needed to process. There were multiple targets with that we process grief and loss that was associated with that things and his relationships had really changed because of the accidents. We process that and you know, he he came to me with a diagnosis of PTSD, I think some other diagnoses in his chart, I can’t remember now it was so long ago and on all these drugs. And I remember when we terminated he no longer qualified for a diagnosis of PTSD. Wow. And he shared with me that he had decided to go back to school to get a Master’s in Counseling to specialize in treating chronic pain and working

18:11
with people who do expire. Generation. Wonderful. Yeah,

Rebecca Kase 18:17
that’s still one of my one of my favorite stories that just that’s just so powerful. Just so powerful, and to see the beauty and the healing that can happen and to see people take that growth and go do something awesome with

Kim Howard 18:30
it. That’s, that’s what makes the job worth it right there. We keep coming back. Yeah, that’s right. That’s why you come back every day. That’s great. So tell me about any myths that you would like to bust about EMDR therapists and self care.

Rebecca Kase 18:45
Yes, I’m so grateful for this question. Hold on, let me get out this box of soap to stand on real quick. So I want everyone I wish this was a message I could spread with the whole world. But I want everyone not just therapists to start to reframe self care as intentional self regulation time. I know that self care conjures images of privilege and elitism and massages and expensive vacations and so on, it can trigger an eye roll and a heavy side because it’s so often painted as a one stop shop and something to do when things really hit the fan and that it requires money. And it’s you know, pampering and it’s not well well some forms of self care can actually absolutely be pampering I love getting massages. It’s just one of the things my body needs to feel right but self care isn’t necessarily about pampering. So I’m also a polyvagal therapist, geek and expert and I just love incorporating polyvagal theory into my EMDR work and I think the polyvagal theory can really help us to reframe our understanding of perspective of self care. So polyvagal theory emphasizes the importance of the social engagement system, which is how we can form relationships as human beings it is is necessary for successful societies and to form bonds and form family units. And it’s just part of our mammalian existence. We are hardwired and predisposition to connect and form bonds. If we didn’t, we’d come into the world and our parents wouldn’t want to attach to us. Or they’d say, nevermind, even when it gets really difficult. I remember when I was a young young adult, my mom disclosed to me, she said, You were just a really difficult teenager I was I was pretty rebellious. She said, when you were a teenager, I understood why some animals eat their young parents out there, you can resonate. And if it wasn’t for your social engagement system, and you’re hardwired to a bond, to bond and attach, we’d abandon each other so much more easily, right. So we rely on our social engagement system and counseling, we all know the most important thing is the therapeutic relationship. It’s what is most necessary for positive treatment outcomes. Because we’re creatures that are hardwired to connect and connection is medicinal, feeling safe and connected to someone, there’s really nothing like it, we don’t heal in isolation, because we’re wired to connect. Now, because we’re wired to connect, we also have the capacity to influence each other’s nervous systems, Steven Porges, in depth data, talk about the role of CO regulation as a necessary precursor to self regulation, you know, pop out into this world, like knowing how to self regulate yourself, you learn, ideally, from people around you who are healthy self regulators that teach you how to regulate yourself and CO regulation paves the way to self regulation. So what happens when your caregiver isn’t well regulated? It has a real negative impact on us. We don’t feel safe, we feel shamed, we may feel vulnerable and judged, we might develop our own unhealthy coping skills. If we learn from that caregiver, that things like alcohol is how you manage feelings, or you don’t do feelings or feelings are scary and dangerous. We need healthy attachment figures to have health and wellness in our own nervous system. And that comes from, ideally, people who show us how to regulate. So I promise I’m getting back to your question. What’s important is that because we know that sometimes as clinicians, we feel like we serve as surrogate parents to our clients. I’m sure everyone who is a therapist will see this can resonate with like, sometimes I feel like I’d become a surrogate parent to my clients. And you do because your clients who didn’t have healthy co regulators in childhood are having to learn that from you. And what kind of nervous system do you want to show up to counseling with and the way you show up with a healthy, well regulated nervous system with a resilient nervous system, a nervous system that’s rooted in ventral in the window of tolerance is you got to take care of your nervous system, we loan out we rent out our nervous systems to our clients when they come to counseling. And if we aren’t taking care of ourselves in between our sessions, and in between our workdays, we’re going to show up with a nervous system that’s flooded in sympathetic fight or flight, or we’re going to show up with a nervous system that shut down and dorsal collapse. And neither of those are healing. They’re not medicinal. We don’t heal there. So think about when you’re going on a vacation. Have you have you gone on vacation this summer? Kim? I have. Yeah. And

Kim Howard 23:06
when June when you went in June,

Rebecca Kase 23:07
did you do like Airbnb or rent a hotel? Or we stayed at a hotel? All right. And I’m sure when you were looking for that hotel room, you probably did some comparison shopping? Yes. Yeah. And if you looked at a hotel room that looked dirty, and dingy, and messy, and all disorganized, I bet that wouldn’t feel very good to your nervous system, would it? No, no, you’re probably like most people, I’m going to look for the spaces that look like clean, human, updated, and airy. And there’s good light. And there’s amenities. Right? Correct. So you don’t want to rent out an inhospitable room. So the metaphor here applies to our nervous systems, we rent out we loan out our nervous systems to our clients in our session, and who wants to rent out a dirty, dingy nervous system. That’s not very easy. So I really see, you know, self care as intentional self regulation time. And it’s not only a duty that we have for our own health and wellness. I mean, can you imagine if everybody on this planet practice a little bit more self-regulation, we’d be in a very different world, I think. But if we don’t practice that, we’re just not going to be able to show up to our, to our work to our jobs to this job as a healer, with the resilient nervous system that we need to offer to our clients and self care. Again, it’s not always pampering it’s not always fun. It can be going on a vacation getting a massage. Sometimes self care is also doing the stuff you don’t want to do. Like I’m gonna go to bed at a normal hour when I really just want to binge another show because I know I need rest. I know I for example, need eight hours of sleep or I’m just not right. I’m going to eat this nutrition thing, nutritious thing, even though I really just want to go get some fried food and I’m not saying you always do the healthy stuff. You got to find balance. You know, I’m all about ice cream and Oreos and I love my sugar. But it’s about finding balance and recognizing like you need to Give yourself a daily dose of self care. It’s not something to sprinkle around like a multivitamin, you need to take it daily to get the benefit of it. You can’t take a multivitamin once a week and expect to, you know, get the effects that you need from it. So if we could daily dose self care in little bit meaningful ways, and recognize it’s intentional self regulation, and it’s an ethical job that I have. So I can continue to do this work, I think can really help us reframe self care in a way that feels more inviting, and a bit more freeing than our previous notions of what that what that means it looks like

Kim Howard 25:36
that, that’s great advice, you hit the nail right on the head, I mean, that it especially applies to people who do what you you do all day long. But it applies to everybody, you know, if there are things that you need to do for yourself, to make yourself a healthier person, and literal or physical, physical or mental, whatever the hell that whatever your your term is for health, then you need to go do that, you know, I mean, I don’t feel bad about you know, I used to belong to the gym pre COVID. Now, I work out at home, because I think a lot of people did that. But I’ve never felt bad about going to the gym and going to a yoga class or getting on a bike and doing some cycling or walking my dogs because that’s what I need, you know, that makes me feel better. And so I think it’s a societal kind of pressure, where people think that you’re selfish, because you want to take care of yourself. And I don’t I don’t believe that. I don’t believe that at all. You just have to figure out how to work that into your life, right? Whether you have small children are whether you’d have to take care of an aging parent, or whatever your your demands are outside of your profession, you got to do what’s best for you. And if that doesn’t make you a selfish person that just makes you somebody who wants to be healthy.

Rebecca Kase 26:42
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that in the counseling fields, we come with these notions in these myths that don’t deserve to make fair wage. We don’t deserve to make money at what we do we give it all away for free. This is a high burnout field. So I’m just going to be burnt out, you know, and who do those who do those myths serve? They don’t serve us? And would you ever say that to a surgeon, you shouldn’t make good money for what you do, because you do an altruistic job. No. And I think because of some of those myths and kind of oppressive beliefs that are placed on this fields along with other helping fields that are predominantly female led, I think it’s time for us to start to challenge those and recognize this doesn’t really serve me, and this doesn’t really serve the population that I’m, I’m helping or that I’m trying to support. It serves insurance companies and hospitals. And you know, it serves those making the money off of you not getting paid much for your job. And I think because of that it can so often put therapists in this place of self care, I roll Oh, that’s a thing I have to do for myself, because the field says I should and instead seeing self care is your right. And it’s it’s like your hard hat that you put on in this profession as if you were going to work on a construction site. You deserve to take care of yourself and set boundaries so that you can keep doing this job because this is such a high burnout field and a really high burnout time. And if you don’t take care of your nervous system probably aren’t going to be able to stay here. Understandably so. And I say that without judgment, like how could you if you didn’t take care of yourself?

Kim Howard 28:20
accurate, accurate. So that leads that’s a great segue to the next question, which are what are your top five self care tips for EMDR therapists?

Rebecca Kase 28:29
First, as I was just saying, reframe self care as an intention as intentional self regulation time, think about it as a time to regulate your nervous system and connect back to your window of tolerance and build resiliency so that you can keep going in this crazy world and keep showing up for your clients who are needing your support and looking for guidance. Number two, see self regulation time is a necessary thing that you have to do regularly to do this work. You’re just not going to survive in this field if you don’t take care of yourself. And I say that without judgment like you’re not going to survive this field. I’m just trying to state a simple truth if you don’t take care of yourself, you will burn out and you will have so much compassion fatigue, you won’t be able to continue on understandably feels like physics dose yourself. Like I said self care should be done in daily doses from large to small, but it has to be a regular dose just like again, when you take a multivitamin you have to take it daily to get the benefit. So think about what do your daily doses of self care look like? For me I try and find movement every day if that’s getting to the gym or getting on the elliptical for 20 minutes or going for a walk or sometimes just wandering around my yard and looking at all the flowers that I planted in the spring. And sometimes it’s doing yoga sometimes it’s going on a hike or stand up paddleboard or whatever that is, but move that’s something that’s really important for me also hold white space, in your calendar and in your life white space, I mean by blank space, so hold blank space in your calendar. So you can get things done and even just have time to let your mind wander we need. Certainly we need structure in our day. But we also need free time. And free time doesn’t mean available time. That’s also important. If you have whitespace, free space in your calendar, it doesn’t mean oh, I’m available necessarily that might be this is when I’m going to catch up on emails. This is when I’m gonna go for a short walk. Or I’m just gonna sit down and stare at the wall and let my mind wander, you know, let your imagination kick in. Sometimes my