Kim Howard  00:00

Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR Podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association, or EMDRIA. I am your host, Kim Howard. Let’s get started today. We are speaking with EMDRIA certified therapist and approved consultant, Dr. Arielle Jordan, to discuss therapy for invisible grief. Thank you, Arielle, for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes,

 

Arielle Jordan  00:26

Thank you for having me, happy to be here.

 

Kim Howard  00:29

Arielle, can you tell us about your path to becoming an EMDR therapist?

 

Arielle Jordan  00:34

Yeah, so my path was personal before it was professional, and I really didn’t plan to become an EMDR therapist, it was something that I found through lived experience and a lot of reflection. So I had went through significant loss in my life, and I realized how little room, like many of us, have, to process grief, especially when it doesn’t fit what people expect. And so later, I pursued my PhD, which my dissertation focused on black mothers who lost their only child, which was part of my story as well. And what I realized through interviewing these women was it helped me see how often we talk about resilience, but not healing. And so EMDR gave me a way to offer something different, and that approach, it meets people where they are, and it gives the brain what it needs to move forward. So after that, I just decided, yeah, I need to get certified. I need to be an approved consultant and just keep climbing the ladder, because it’s helped so many people.

 

Kim Howard  01:45

Yeah, it’s a great it’s a great story, and I am, I am really sorry for your loss. I’m sure that was something that anyone can be. Think that’s unimaginable happened to a parent. So I like how you touched on the fact that we sort of glaze over the grieving process, and we move on to being resilient and and getting on and moving on. And I that’s pretty common with us as people, as society in general, and I think it’s because we’re so uncomfortable with a concept of grief, right? You don’t know what to say to somebody. You don’t know how you’re supposed to be feeling if it’s happened to you or someone that you know they might be close to, and you just think, well, I just need to hurry up and get on and move on with it. And that’s not necessarily how it works. You know, it might work for some people, but for most people, I don’t think it works that way, and it doesn’t work well. So thank you for that.

 

Arielle Jordan  02:38

I think when it comes back up, like, if we tuck it away, it’s gonna come back up somewhere. Yeah, you know, we’ll be thinking, I don’t know why this came up this way, but it ties back to something. You know every time.

 

Kim Howard  02:52

Yeah, it does. Absolutely. So, Arielle, you may have touched on this, but in case you want to elaborate, what’s your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy?

 

Arielle Jordan  03:01

Honestly, it’s when people start to feel like themselves again, or a better version of them. It’s we’re not like forcing a breakthrough. We’re starting to like, allow the space for things to shift, for things to settle. And I think that that’s part of that is one of my favorite parts, because I’ve seen people who are overwhelmed or they’re disconnected, and then all of a sudden they start to feel grounded. After they are they’re working on themselves, and somebody saying, like, I didn’t know I could feel calm. This is interesting, you know, and then sitting with that, that’s my favorite part, just watching them change right in front of my eyes, even when they don’t realize it.

 

Kim Howard  03:48

You can see it on their faces. We’ve talked to people on the podcast before about that, about how you can just it’s almost an instant thing in the therapy room. You can see it come over our face, and you’re like, Oh, it’s this is happening, even though they may not realize we interviewed somebody recently, and I can’t remember who it was, but she said that she had a client come in, and she had asked her, How was, you know, the last session, and I think they had done some reprocessing. And she goes, Well, I don’t think we hit the right target, because, you know, that’s really not bothering me anymore. And then she back to the light bulb moment with the client, right? She’s like, well, that’s because it worked, you know? That’s, that’s what it’s supposed to be like. And so what a relief I’m sure, that clients have when that happens.

 

Arielle Jordan  04:29

Love when it happens.

 

Kim Howard  04:32

Arielle, can you please define invisible grief for us?

 

Arielle Jordan  04:35

Yeah, it’s the the kind of grief that doesn’t always get acknowledged, and I think that can include like the loss of a child, or the constant emotional toll of navigating racism or a change in identity that no one sees, and just because people don’t recognize it doesn’t. Mean that it doesn’t have real impact. It’s still grief. It still lives in the body. And so when I say invisible grief, typically people in those groups, they’re like, Yeah, that’s what it is. Like, I didn’t have a word for it, but yeah, you don’t see it when I’m dealing with it, but it feels like grief. And then there they they have a sort of release, because it’s like they named it, you know?

 

Kim Howard  05:24

Yeah, absolutely. What are the specific complexities or challenges when offering EMDR therapy for invisible grief?

 

Arielle Jordan  05:35

Invisible grief often doesn’t come with clear language or closure. It’s there’s several layers that of pain and silence around that pain, and that’s where I think EMDR helps. It gives people that process that we don’t have to rely on the perfect wording or how you say it, or how you present it like literally, we gather what needs to be gathered, and it also requires us as therapist to slow down like we have to really listen for those things, and safety is a part of it. We have to make sure that person feels safe for all the parts of their story. So I think sometimes that makes it complex, but it also reminds us to slow down a little bit make sure we’re really getting the right stuff, assuring them they don’t have to have the right words. We’re still going to do a good job here. We’re still going to move forward, right?

 

Kim Howard  06:28

Absolutely. What successes have you seen using EMDR therapy for this population?

 

Arielle Jordan  06:34

Sleeping better, for sure, feeling less anxious, being more present with families. A lot of people say they were more present for their children, or, you know, things like that, emotional reactivity goes down. They start to see a sense of peace coming back, which is always beautiful. So everybody looks everybody’s journey looks different, but those are the kind of shifts that I think are often and that’s what healing looks like. It’s like it’s actually happening. And that’s right, or, you know, right?

 

Kim Howard  07:07

Yeah, I remember when my my mother passed away, when I was pretty young. Actually, I was 35 when she passed away. And I remember the first few weeks, you know, there was an every day, every day, I would cry just just from the loss, and then it was every couple of days, and then it was once a week. This is a milestone, you know, I’ve it’s been a whole week, right? And so then it was a couple of weeks ago by, and then it was a month. And so I looked at those, those grieving milestones, and I thought, Oh, this is progress, right? You know, because the it’s becoming less intense for me. And I know that everyone’s grief is not the same as mine, and they might process it differently, but that’s how I found healing, was that, you know, the the intensity of that, that loss, yes, lessened as the weeks go on. And that’s an old cliche, time heals all wounds, and it does take time. The time is different for everybody. You know. Some people it could take months, years. Some people might take weeks, months. It just kind of depends. But yeah, and….

 

Arielle Jordan  08:09

I think when we’re talking about, like, child loss, specifically for myself, it’s every birthday, every milestone, every holiday. My friend’s kids are growing up, you know, my mind is like, stuck at 18 months when she passed. So, like, there’s a lot of layers that goes into, you know, this particular type of loss, especially if you don’t have surviving children. And that’s what I was curious about with my my dissertation. I was like, what do other people do? And then I looked at the research, and culturally there, there wasn’t a lot of diversity. So I was like, let me dive in here and let me just see what, what’s happening with our community and that, which hopefully will open the door for other studies to be done on different cultures. But it’s been fascinating to see the work and then also apply EMDR to the work, just to kind of shake it up a little bit. And it’s, it’s been wonderful to see like, okay, yeah, I am gonna have a hard time still, but it won’t be as hard as it used to be, right? Yeah, absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  09:16

And I Yeah, you’re right. The milestones that continue to happen after someone you love passes away, it’s, I mean, it’s at least for me. I mean that first year, every every holiday, every birthday, everything was intense, you know? And then it kind of, for me, at least, kind of less than but I will say every once in a while, usually what, what triggers me is usually because my mother used to love to sing. She had an operatic voice and and we were, we would go to church every Sunday. We were Catholic. And, well, I’m still Catholic as well, but certain songs that, I mean, I can almost hear her singing in church, and that will, that will just get me all teary eyed, and I have to reach for the Kleenex, you know, and get through it for a couple of months. And so those kinds of things, you just never know when something like that’s going to pop up. And even with my father, I remember I was in I used to, we live in the DC area, and I was in the city for work, and and I was going to the metro, or walking down the street going to the Metro. And I remember I looked at this guy, and I thought, oh my God, that looks just like…he looks just like my dad, you know, and, and he could have literally been my dad’s brother. He looked so similar. And, and I thought, oh, that’s, that’s really strange. And so, you know, you just never know when something’s going to happen. And so you have to, you need to have the tools to help you deal with what the when the moment happens. So I’m glad that you’re able to provide those to people.

 

Arielle Jordan  10:41

Yeah, absolutely. I think what you said too is is not uncommon, like seeing somebody that reminds you of the person that you lost, or the song, or things like that. And those can also be beautiful resourcing tools to like, if you think about, you know, mom and that song, and how does it make you feel? And you know, we can really get into some great EMDR resources for people to take with them, even when they’re grieving and I and there’s, like, so many things that we can do, it’s always exciting to see and pull that person’s story into that. It’s not a one size fits all thing. We’re gonna tailor it to what helps you? Yeah, absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  11:22

And we’ve talked about this on the podcast before that whenever somebody walks into your office or to your Zoom Room, if you’re doing therapy virtually, you guys are customizing your approach to each client, whether you offer EMDR therapy and or you have other therapies into your professional belt, you know, you have to look at that client and figure out what they need and how to help them heal. And so, yeah, it’s a customized it’s what that old family Burger King Have it your way. I mean, literally, every time somebody new walks in the door, you know, you guys have to do that. So I know that’s a lot of work for you all, but we certainly do appreciate the efforts that you guys make. Absolutely,

 

Arielle Jordan  12:00

It’s like a happy meal. You can get this piece, or we could do this piece, or….

 

Kim Howard  12:05

You can get this toy.

 

Arielle Jordan  12:06

Yeah, you’re gonna leave different regardless. We have options.

 

Kim Howard  12:10

Are there any myths that you would like to bust about working with EMDR therapy for invisible grief?

 

Arielle Jordan  12:16

Yes, first that EMDR is only for big trauma. It’s not, I know that’s probably been busted on this podcast before, but it’s really effective for long term stress, for complicated grief, for emotional overwhelm and also healing doesn’t mean forgetting or being over it. It can mean remembering differently or without the same intensity or pain. And so I kind of bust those myths a lot, especially when we’re talking about grief. Does that mean I’m going to forget my child? Absolutely not. But it means that I can hold the story with less intensity and still move forward and integrate them even though they’re no longer here. So I think when I paint that picture, it’s a little bit more receivable. So they’re like, Okay, yeah, I’m ready to do this work.

 

Kim Howard  13:06

Yeah, yeah. We had, we interviewed a member about a year, year and a half ago about EMDR therapy and first responders. And she was out in California and worked a lot with the police departments and the fire departments and emergency personnel, EMS, etc, paramedics. And she talked about, I think it was a detective, or maybe it was a police officer, I can’t remember who was in her her client rotation, and he had come up on a scene, and the little girl had passed away, I think it was a traffic accident, and he was with her when she died, and he had come to her because he was having trouble getting past that trauma. And then once they did all the EMDR work, he said, You know, I can still see her, but that intense feeling of overwhelming sadness and the inability that I couldn’t help her survive has gone away. And that’s really what you know, the memory is still there. It’s not as intense, the feeling’s not as intense. And that goes back to the whole the Body Keeps the Score, you know, from Dr van der Kolk, your body literally is remembering the negative trauma that happened to you. And so EMDR therapy helps that subside. And so that’s really the goal there.

 

Arielle Jordan  14:20

Absolutely, yeah.

 

Kim Howard  14:21

What advice do you have for EMDR therapists listening on how they can help these clients?

 

Arielle Jordan  14:26

I would say, be curious, stay patient. Remember that what’s invisible to the outside world might be taking up a lot of space internally for that client, so you’re gonna have to build trust. I work a lot with first responders and military as well, as well as have been a soldier, and so that was one of the things that I didn’t like, even is when someone tried to rush the process, and I’m not quite there with them yet. So I shut down. And then also….culturally, there wasn’t a lot of diversity. So when I’m talking about racial trauma in the military, I’m gonna need a little time to get comfortable, to make sure I can talk about that with you. So you know, keep in mind that culture, race and lived experiences have shaped how people grieve and how they heal. So so that requires us to to meet them where they are and not rush that process.

 

Kim Howard  15:27

Yeah, thank you. Arielle, what would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR therapy with this population?

 

Arielle Jordan  15:36

Hmm, I would say that healing doesn’t mean that you have to tell your story over and over again, and I know that’s a lot. That’s the thing that a lot of my military folks like that they don’t have to give me all the details. So EMDR gives your brain another way to work through what’s stuck, even if you don’t have the words, even if you don’t want to use the words, or whatever the case may be, and it’s okay to want more than just surviving. You can have peace too. Peace is a valid goal, so we work on that until we get there.

 

Kim Howard  16:12

Absolutely we’ve had other podcast guests who work with special ops as well, and a lot of times they literally cannot tell you what happened. And so they have to figure out a way to get a little bit of information so they can work on that target. But I think that’s one of the attractive things about EMDR, is that you don’t have to, you don’t have to talk it to death, you know? And so because sometimes that that doesn’t help either, even even though talking about things helps people heal, but talking about it over and over again, I don’t you know, a lot of times it’s not healthy either. So at least an EMDR therapy, we don’t need the gory details. We just need a small piece of information to get to get started.

 

Arielle Jordan  16:52

So that’s very useful. When I worked at the military hospital, I worked with some special ops folks, and they were saying, like, even if, even if we’re out like, we still don’t want to talk about it like, even, even though we can, it still doesn’t feel like you can. So, yeah, it’s, it’s quite all right. So we’ll try EMDR exposure therapy. Yeah.

 

Kim Howard  17:15

Arielle, how do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR therapist?

 

Arielle Jordan  17:20

I stay mindful that each person’s story is shaped by many layers. So I look at culture, identity and history. I also reflect on how my experiences, including like my time in the military, or my identity as a Black woman, or how that influences how I hold the space for others too. So I think it cultural humility is it means that we’re continuing to learn. So it’s not just clinically, but personally as well. And I think that’s what makes a really good clinician, when they can look at all of those different layers and then continue to work on them.

 

Kim Howard  17:58

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I, we talked about this before the podcast started. You know, I was a military brat, and, you know, I had the privilege of living on military bases. And you I have talked about this before on this podcast as a child. If you only want to play with kids who look like you, you’re going to be a lonely kid, because the military base is very diverse, and you have to learn at a young age that not everybody’s like you, not everybody even came or was born in the same country as you, because a lot of times, you know, my dad was helicopter maintenance at an army based in Alabama, where they train all of the helicopter pilots for the army. But we also, and they probably still do, train helicopter pilots from other countries. And so, you know, you’ve got that mix living on that military base, and you learn very quickly that, you know, this is how the world is. But some people don’t grow up that way, and they don’t have that opportunity to be exposed to that. And so they need to learn because, quite frankly, the world is a lot more connected than it ever used to be, and so you never know what you’re going to find in the workplace or among your friends or your children’s friends later in life if you have a family. And so that’s good. Learning is, I think, key to that, keeping an open mind. So being questionable, being searching, that’s the word I’m looking for, curious. Thank you. Being curious is is a good thing.

 

Arielle Jordan  19:24

Yeah, where, where I grew up, it wasn’t diverse at all. And so it was a whole different experience for me. And so then, when I was in the Army, and I switched to reserves, my unit was in West Virginia, and I was the only person of color there, so it was a very different experience from when being in like Fort Jackson and Fort Lee. It was completely different. So I was like, Oh man……

 

Kim Howard  19:53

Yeah, yeah, that is definitely different. Yeah, it’s a different experience. Yeah.

 

Arielle Jordan  19:59

Continuous learning, though?

 

Kim Howard  20:01

Yeah, absolutely. Do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource you would suggest, either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

 

Arielle Jordan  20:11

For my favorite free resource? I don’t know. I always go to EMDRIA to get resources. So I was…

 

Kim Howard  20:19

Hey! We like that. We’d like to hear that not everything on the website is free, but some of it is. So…

 

Arielle Jordan  20:26

Yeah, so I mean, I really, I mean just basic stuff, just doing consultations with people, just explaining the eight phases, is something I always go back to over and over again, because a lot of times clients want to rush it into, like I want to do EMDR, and then, so if you show them that they’re already doing it and that we’re history collecting, right, you know, then that’s a little bit more helpful to kind of gage where we are in the process. And they can see, oh, okay, so all of this is EMDR, and not just phase three.

 

Kim Howard  20:58

Yeah, absolutely. And I will go ahead and put a link in the podcast description for the eight phases, because we that is open to the some of that is open to the public as well.

 

Arielle Jordan  21:08

And, I also have a resource, I guess it’s not quite EMDR related, but it’s racial trauma related on my website, okay, I use that checklist. I created it when I was writing my book because it’s a tool that helps clients and clinicians identify how racial stress and trauma may be impacting their mental and emotional health, and so we use it for reflection, validation and just starting those important conversations in and out of therapy, which can lead to Your EMDR targets as well.

 

Kim Howard  21:41

Yeah, that’s great. I will, if you send me the link, I will go ahead and add that to our podcast description as well. That any resource out there that will help therapists help the clients who are coming in the door, we would be glad to share that. Thank you, Ariel, if you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be?

 

Kim Howard  21:59

I think I would still be in the helping field, like I felt like I would still be focused on growth and emotional resilience some way, like speaking, teaching, leading workshops. I thought about incorporating, incorporating dogs, because I was like, if I could do anything, what would I do? And if I still be in the helping field, what would I change? And I will probably have some dogs there, I think.

 

Kim Howard  22:28

Yeah, absolutely, we’ve had authors and a couple of podcast guests as well authors for the magazine and the blog talk about animal-assisted therapy and how to incorporate that with your EMDR practice. And so that is a legitimate thing. You don’t have to have a barn and a bunch of horses out in Wyoming to be able to do that, you know. So there is an option out there. And yeah, absolutely most of the time, dogs are definitely stress. They help relieve stress with people. So yeah, that’d be a good, that’d be a good, a good new thing to add?

 

Arielle Jordan  22:57

Yeah, I think so.

 

Kim Howard  22:57

Arielle, is there anything else you want to add?

 

Arielle Jordan  22:58

I would like to say, yeah, like, grief and trauma aren’t always visible, but they are real. And you know, whether it’s connected to, like, personal loss or systemic harm or identity shifts, it deserves to be acknowledged and supported, and EMDR is one of those tools that can help people do that work, and it feels safe and it feels empowering. So I just want to, you know, encourage people to to use that tool that they have had, the clinicians to use that tool that they have, because it really is a game changer for a lot of people.

 

Kim Howard  23:38

A great way to end the podcast. Ariel, thank you. This has been the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast with our guest. Arielle Jordan, visit www.EMDRIA.org for more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our find EMDR Therapist Directory with more than 17,000 therapists available. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this free podcast wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.