Kim Howard  00:05

Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association, or EMDRIA. I’m your host, Kim Howard. In this episode, we talk with EMDR, certified therapist and approved consultant, Rotem Brayer about thorny topics in the therapy room. Let’s get started. Today, we are speaking with EMDR certified therapist and approved consultant, Rotem Brayer, to discuss thorny topics in the EMDR therapy room. Thank you, Rotem, for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

 

Rotem Brayer  00:34

Thanks for having me, Kim.

 

Kim Howard  00:36

Can you tell us about your path to becoming an EMDR therapist?

 

Rotem Brayer  00:40

Yes. It’s not very sexy, I have to warn you. So it’s a I used to work at Jewish Family Service in Denver, and my boss decided to send me to a training. And I thought, Yeah, another training. I did so many trainings, but EMDR was different. I remember first day of basic training, thinking, this is why I became a therapist. Everything I did so far was a foreplay, where it was a kind of preparation for what I am about to do. And since then, I’ve been investing all my energy, my professional energy, into EMDR.

 

Kim Howard  01:21

Well, we’re glad that happened, and thank you for all the work that you do. We certainly do appreciate all the efforts that you guys make to heal humanity. We are all part of that big family. So, thank you.

 

Rotem Brayer  01:32

Yes.

 

Kim Howard  01:33

What’s your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy?

 

Rotem Brayer  01:37

I think that my favorite part is that I know that there is a resolution, there’s going to be resolution, and it’s not always in 12 sessions, and it’s not always, you know, quick fix, like a lot of people, unfortunately, think that EMDR, how EMDR works, is by some kind of a quick fix magic. But I know that with EMDR, there is a resolution. And even if we have to do a long, long preparation, and if we, you know, start reprocessing, have to go back to the, you know, phase two and do more, you know, strengthening resources and all that. I think the AIP model is a great conceptual model, and it just gives me hope. And when I am hopeful, my clients have hope.

 

Kim Howard  02:27

Yeah, absolutely. Rotem, without providing details that might violate someone’s privacy, what are some thorny topic discussions that you’ve had during your therapy sessions?

 

Rotem Brayer  02:37

Hmm, that’s a good question. Yeah. So for me, the world, my world, is kind of divided to pre October 7, 2023 and post October 7, 2023 what happened on October 7 was very traumatizing for me, and I know for some of my colleagues as well, and some friends, and some of the topics that have been coming since October 7 are really have been triggering for me, particularly, you know, justifying acts of violence, or sometimes it’s not even explicitly justifying, but ignoring certain acts of violence. And that’s coming from really, really good people who care about other people and care about humanity and care about human rights. That doesn’t sit well with me. And I think the other topic that is really triggering for me is the rise of anti-Semitism.

 

Kim Howard  03:49

Yeah, absolutely no. Those are difficult topics, and I don’t have the answer. I don’t I don’t know if any of us do, but I would suspect that people who are coming into the therapy room, you know, all of us are bombarded with the news cycle. It’s been 24/7, for decades, you know. But now, I think, with social media, I feel like it makes it a little more twisty the news, because people take snippets of information and then they glob onto it, and then that, that’s their whole point, or their whole discussion topic point of reference, yeah. And so they don’t, they don’t understand the complexity of what the issue really is. They just exactly hone in on that little piece, and then they drive it home. And that becomes very frustrating, because if you really don’t understand any kind of history anywhere in the world, you probably don’t really understand what’s happening. So you really have to educate yourself, and not just from your friends on social media. I mean, not that some of your friends aren’t really smart and may not know things, but you really have to do your own research before you take a stand on anything these days. So….

 

Rotem Brayer  04:51

Absolutely I agree with that, that people get snippets of information. That’s one important point, the other important point. Many people consume their information from social media, and I think, from any, any form of media these days, or I should say most forms of media, is that most forms of media are, or most media channels are biased, so especially social media, I think, and you know, if we’re looking at social media or even YouTube, you know, some people consume their information from YouTube. It’s a curated feed. You’re not getting the full picture. You’re getting what, whatever you’ve been consuming, you’re getting more and more and more. And that creates confirmation bias. So whatever you were thinking, the feed will give you more of that to kind of strengthen what you’ve already been thinking. So you think more of that now, and you’re really, really convinced that you are right, and the other side, whoever the other side is, is wrong. And I think there’s, there’s, there should be a middle path more than the extreme sides that we’re living in these days.

 

Kim Howard  05:10

Yeah, yeah, that’s true. I majored in journalism in college, and I’m 57 I’ve disclosed this before, so it’s not new to anybody out there, but… So back in the day, we didn’t have 24 hour news cycle, or maybe, yeah, we probably did, but it was, we definitely didn’t have social media. And, you know, we were taught at that point, you know you have there’s you got to get both sides to the story. When you’re running your story as a journalist and as a consumer of I don’t typically. My jobs have not been a reporter or journalist strictly since I left college, but as a consumer of news, I try to make sure that I’m getting my news from several different sources, whether they’re conservative or liberal. I’m trying to find the same news story, and I’m trying to find that balance in terms of what I’m consuming. And the minute somebody tells me, well, I saw this in my feed, I’m like, Whoa, stop. Did you actually look the story up? Is this really a legitimate news site? Is this really a legitimate story? Have you read the whole story, not just the headline and the subtext and so right? You have to really kind of delve into it a little bit more. So it makes us as consumers of news a little it makes it puts the onus on us a little bit more, because there’s so much out there. But you’re right, once you plug in a certain algorithm, you know, you that’s what you will find in your feed. Whatever that feed is, whatever social media they’re looking at it just repeats the same stuff from different places.

 

Rotem Brayer  07:23

Right, right, right, exactly. And I actually also majored in journalism and media in college, and I my, my resolution for 2025 is to be away from the news, like my news is, like, you know, EMDR article, you know, studies have been published, you know, like the most recent research that that’s my news. I’m trying to stay away from the news because I really realize it’s not healthy for me. I I advocate for my clients, to, maybe not, you know, not go to that extent of not consuming any news, but to minimize or to take some breaks, or to have dedicated time for that. And I appreciate what you said about, you know, looking at different media channels, and because I used to do that when I consumed the news in the past I did, and it’s so interesting, because if you’re looking at two media channels with opposing views, it’s like you’re living in a different world. Yeah, the way they reporting whatever is happening is so vastly different. And this is again, understanding where our clients are coming from, if they’re consuming only one type of media. So I think developing more kind of like a wider angle and more objectivity is really, really important.

 

Kim Howard  08:54

Yeah, yeah, it really is. And I agree with you. I mean, part of my job is social media so on for unfortunately, I sort of have to keep abreast during the work day as to what’s going on. But I will tell you that most of the time my news, news, quote, unquote consumption, is generally in the mornings, and then I try to really taper off as the day goes on. I’m just I usually try to see what’s trending on Twitter in case, or, sorry, X in case, there’s any kind of news event that might be related to EMDR therapy. If there’s some kind of disaster, there’s some kind of war breaks out or even if mental health is trending, then I can get the plug in for EMDR and the resources and EMDR therapy. But gotta learn to taper that off. You know, you have to eventually just stop consuming it, because it’s really not healthy for any of us. You know, even reporters, it’s not even healthy for them. They’re in the first line trenches of whatever they’re reporting on. It’s not healthy for them to do it either. And so they’re working in that news media, and it’s not healthy for those professionals to do it, especially not healthy for the rest of us. So just takes a little bit of a step back. It’s not easy, but it can be done. It’s really convenient. We have all those apps on your phone. I will tell you that.

 

Rotem Brayer  10:03

Yeah, I was looking for right behind me, there’s a book that I really recommend to a lot of people, and I gifted this book to a lot of friends. It’s called deep work. It’s not a therapy. Book was written by a neuroscientist, not neuroscientist, sorry, a computer scientist. So his name is Cal Newport, and he talks about the importance of really doing your deep work, being away from your email and your news feed and your social media and all that. And this is really what distinguishes people who perform really, really well and what they do, because most people are so distracted all the time. You know, there’s a lot of research about, you know, how many times people check their emails during a work dance like people don’t focus on tasks for more than three minutes. How can you do anything if you’re not really engaged in deep work. It’s a really, really good book that he reviews, you know, people in history and in the present who are engaged in deep work and how they are able to achieve so much more. So I also recommend it to clients, right? Because we’re all living in this world of you know, we’re attached to our phones or attached to our devices, we’re spending, I think, on average, 13 hours a day in front of a screen, which is insane. Yeah, but this is our reality, and if we’re not being very proactive about it, then we’re kind of by, you know, we have the tendency to just get sucked into our screens.

 

Kim Howard  11:42

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. What are the specific complexities or challenges during EMDR therapy, when discussions become thorny?

 

Rotem Brayer  11:49

I think specific complexities are specific to each therapist, right? Because our clients, issues are, by nature, thorny. Right to the board, whatever they bring to therapy is, there’s a lot of emotional pain, there’s a lot of trauma, there’s a lot of you know, abuse, neglect, whatever we’re working with is by definition, thorny. And if we’re not doing our work, us, meaning therapists, then we can, it can be even more thorny for us. So I think again, for me, specifically, it was that October 7, and what happened after and all this, you know, the rise in anti-Semitism is still very triggering for me. But I think every therapist should look at what is going on for them, what was their experience, formative experiences, because this is what we usually work with, right? The formative experience, the childhood. Every once in a while we have a, you know, a client who had no just absolutely perfect life, and then had a car accident three weeks ago, and they come to EMDR therapy, and it’s easy, but usually it’s, it’s harder because it’s, it’s childhood stuff, it’s these mental algorithms that that people are stuck with. And if we have this, these same mental algorithms, if we have these issues that are unresolved as therapist, then it’s triggering for us. And so I think every therapist should look at their own stuff. And I think, you know, my opinion, that every therapist should be in therapy.

 

Kim Howard  13:40

So you may have touched on this already, but I’m going to ask a question in case you want to you want to add anything. As an EMDR therapist, how do you handle those discussions?

 

Rotem Brayer  13:47

Yeah, so I think we touched on that by taking breaks from news or taking, you know,cspecific times to do the news. So with time limit, right? Don’t spend every moment that you have just scrolling through news. I used to do that between sessions. I like in the 10 minutes between clients, I used to go on CNN and see what’s new in the world. And I think that in that moment of going on CNN, you’re…I wasn’t, I didn’t realize how toxic it was. But if you do it, you know, multiple times a day, every day, for weeks and months and years, it does have this damaging effect, in my opinion. Agaig, I might be particularly sensitive, so, you know, some people might be able to do that, and that’s fine. I’m not saying this is the right way, but to help clients, I think we need to help them create more balance. And whatever balances and however, you know, however, whatever your approach to creating balance is, if it’s, you know, through breathing techniques, or, you know, polyvagal exercises or Buddhist meditation, or Buddhist philosophy, or Buddhist psychology, which I’m a big fan of, then you need to help. We need to help our clients bring more objectivity into the world. I think that there’s so much reactivity now in the world that it’s, I don’t know, to me, it seems sometimes unreal, like how reactive people are, and I think in the therapy room, this is for a lot of people, this is the only hour in the week where we can slow things down. And that that slowing things down and examining and getting more objectivity, I think through EMDR, I think can help our clients kind of re evaluate what they’re doing outside of therapy, right? Because the goal of what we do in EMDR therapy is not just have a good 15 minute or an hour of EMDR therapy is to have better quality of life outside of the therapy room. And if we do that, whether if it’s through EMDR or other approaches, I think that we’re modeling something for our clients, let’s slow things down.

 

Kim Howard  16:24

Yeah, yeah, that’s good. That’s really good advice. And we have tools available to us, you know, like you talked about spending too much time on the screen or too much time checking your email, you know, three minutes at a time, or whatever the hits going to be, you know, you know, you can put an outgoing message on the email it says, Hey, I checked my email messages between eight and 10 and three and five during the day, and I’ll reach back out to you or whatever. I have seen outgoing messages like that. I have seen outgoing voicemail messages like that. When you leave a message for somebody in a professional setting, there’s, I have an Apple phone, you know, there’s do not disturb. There’s all those focus times, all of those things. I put my Do Not Disturb on at night, because I am a menopausal woman, and I do not want my sleep interrupted by late night text messages. And so I can’t deal. So I put it on between 9 p.m. and 7 a.m. I don’t need to know that that package is being delivered through the text. I don’t care. I don’t…that does help me, you know? And so we have some tools available to help us, you know, devise a better plan to step back a little bit. So let’s try to, you know, think about utilizing those. Some people I know have gone, even gone so far as to remove certain apps on their phone and just leave them on their laptop, which means that you have to make the effort to go to the laptop.

 

Rotem Brayer  17:41

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, social media has not been on my phone for years. I don’t know if I’ve ever had any social media on my phone, because otherwise, yeah, that that’s just the social media app. Going back to Cal Newport, who wrote Deep Work, and later he wrote, also another good book called Digital Minimalism. So Deep Work was mostly for knowledge workers, so for the work environment, and then digital minimalism was for our, you know, everyone in in our personal lives, um, and he explains how these social media platforms are designed to be very addictive. Any people don’t think about like, Oh, this is addictive. It’s not a, you know, it’s not a chemical. It’s addictive. They hire very, very smart people to design, again, by design, this is not a coincidence that these social media platforms are addictive. Yeah, I think a lot of people have this experience. You people like people call it Doom Scrolling, right? Yes, scroll, scroll, scroll, and then four hours later, they feel so defeated. Like, what am I doing?

 

Kim Howard  18:58

What? Like, how did you just waste four hours? And then you have the whole FOMO, the fear of missing out. Somebody’s on vacation, somebody bought a new car, somebody lost weight, or, you know, has a new house, or new puppy, or whatever, yeah. And you’re like, Oh, I wish I could fill-in-the-blank. And so it’s, it’s really hard to do that. There was a documentary that came out. I feel like it was in 2020…

 

Rotem Brayer  19:20

Social Dilemma?

 

Kim Howard  19:21

Yes, Social Dilemma on Netflix, yes, we watched that. And yes, the time I was still raising another young adults, they were on the edge of teenager-dom and into young adulthood. And so I can see that happening. They, you know, they talk to people who work for those organizations, those social media companies, and they talked about, yeah, we’re totally making you guys click on stuff you don’t even realize you’re doing it, you know? And that’s that dopamine hit that goes to your brain that makes you feel good because you’re opening up the app and looking at it, yeah, and yeah. I don’t think anybody who’s ever stepped back from social media has regretted it, like, I don’t think people you see news stories about people like, oh, I gave up this or did that and there. Living their life, and they’re pretty happy, you know, yeah, not being on social media or not being as attached to it as you want they once were. And so that’s not a bad thing.

 

Rotem Brayer  20:07

Yeah, the Social Dilemma. It’s…I highly recommend, whoever listens to this to, you know, watch the Social Dilemma. They interviewed Tristan Harris there, and he said, it’s a slot machine in your pocket. That’s what it is. Slot machines are designed to be addictive, and this phone is, by design, addictive. So if you want to really create more balance in your life, you have to develop the that’s again, going back to Cal Newport and what he talks about, you have to develop a philosophy. It’s not just tools. It’s not just apps. You know, you’re gonna download, you know, three more meditation apps, and then you’re like, No, you need less apps. And my philosophy is, personally, I don’t download apps that I unless I absolutely need it. So my grocery store has coupons, and I buy without coupons. I don’t need another app my gym now I have to, because I have to sign in through the bar code, or until then, until, like, my previous gym didn’t require it, so I had an option to punch in my phone number, so I was able to do that. But yeah, you have to really be deliberate and think about how you interact with these devices, because if you leave it to kind of like the default mode, you’re going to be in front of your screen every year.

 

Kim Howard  21:28

Yeah, absolutely. I agree. So Rotem, are there any myths that you would like to bust about working with EMDR therapy and complicated, thorny topics?

 

Rotem Brayer  21:39

Yeah, it’s a good question. I think that it’s a it’s a hard topic to talk about, but in my opinion. This is my personal opinion. I know some people might not agree with me. I’m willing to work with any person from any you know, segment of the population, any race or skin color or and this, this might be hard for I know some of my friends and colleagues, whoever they voted for. I am working with people, with humans. Every human who comes to my office deserves my full attention and compassion, and it doesn’t matter, you know, their background and what they’ve done and who they voted for. And I know this is something that a lot of people are struggling with, but I think that everybody, any person who asked for our help deserves to get help.

 

Kim Howard  22:46

Yeah, and I know that’s really difficult, and I don’t, I think that I feel like anybody who is a therapist, who, when someone comes into their office as a new client, or even a current client, you know, I think that one of the myths would be, well, this issue wouldn’t affect me, right? I, you know, like this, this particular news cycle story is not going to impact me. Well, you really don’t know who’s walking in your door and whether it’s going to impact them, which then will therefore impact you as the therapist. And so it’s kind of weird. You kind of, you guys kind of have to be sort of alert all the time about all the things, you know, they could come in the door at any time. And so that puts you a little more makes you a little more hypersensitive, I think, too.

 

Rotem Brayer  23:31

Yeah, but, but again, I think if, if I’m hypersensitive, that means that I need to do my work right, because there’s something triggering me about this client, I can share, you know, a colleague, share with me. This colleague has, you know, certain political views, and got a client with the other from the other side, and was very triggered initially, and ended up doing her own work, and is very grateful because she was considering terminating this client because of some things that were said in the therapy room, right, and through doing her own work, she’s very grateful that and she keeps working with this individual and kind of you know, there’s an opportunity for growth there.

 

Kim Howard  24:24

Yeah, absolutely. What advice do you have for EMDR therapist listening on how they can help these kinds of clients?

 

Rotem Brayer  24:32

Do your own therapy. Do your own therapy. Do your own EMDR therapy. Whatever’s triggering you, you know needs to be figured out and processed and resolved in it will make you him. It will make your life better in general. It will make you a better therapist.

 

Kim Howard  24:53

Good advice. Thank you, Rotem. How do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR therapist?

 

Rotem Brayer  25:00

I remind myself that my thoughts and maybe opinions are not the whole truth and nothing but the truth my you know, we’re all have our sources of knowledge, and you know, a lot of it is rooted in childhood and how we grew up, and what, you know, the story that was told to us growing up. I think that trend tends to be more extreme now, but there’s, you know, looking at just the stories we’ve been told. A lot of times, there’s good guys and bad guys, and again, it’s, it’s kind of like a Hollywood story writers, there’s the villain, there’s a hero and the reality is always more complex, and I have to remind myself of that, and I have to again, by reminding myself I’m also modeling something to my clients and having discussions about that can help. It’s not instead of, you know, EMDR processing, but it’s in addition. It’s part of, you know, how we, we integrate, how we, you know, I like to when I close the session, I like to not just do some resources or closing the session with exercises, but I like to talk with my clients about what’s coming up for them. What’s the you know, what are the insights that you get from our processing? And so that’s part of it to develop, to kind of enhance the objectivity. I think that EMDR is really, really good at helping people get a more object, objective view on their traumas, or, you know, adverse life experiences. And I think that there are ways, by having an ongoing discussion, to enhance this trend of developing more objectivity.

 

Kim Howard  27:04

Yep, absolutely. And what is that quote? I don’t even know who said it, but it’s something along the lines of, you talk about history and learning things, you know, the whole Hollywood good buy/bad guy thing, “History is written by the winners.” Yeah, you know, let’s not forget that it’s those people who continue to tell the stories over and over again that become sort of fact or “factual-ish” that we all then consume later. And so how does that impact what you’re learning and about so let’s, let’s keep that in mind. Yeah, good, right, right, because you’ve already mentioned a couple of books by Cal Newport Digital Minimalism and Deep Work. So are there any other you have a favorite free EMDR related resource you would suggest, either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

 

Rotem Brayer  27:53

EMDR books that I recommend?

 

Kim Howard  27:55

Or other resources I think that you have an online community that’s pretty, pretty active. So we’d be glad to mention that so people could connect with you and your colleagues.

 

Rotem Brayer  28:07

Okay, I can find that that book right behind me, but there’s a new book by Dr. Alexandra Dent from the U.K., “Using spirituality and EMDR Therapy.” That book was very, very helpful. It just came out. But, you know, the universe kind of connected me and Alexandra right at the time when I needed that book, and I highly recommend it. I also want to invite you know, everyone who listens to that. I’m assuming most people listen to this are EMDR therapist. So the EMDR Learning Community is a free community that I started in 2019 it was, you know. In 2019 it was just few of us just having conversations and sharing our experiences with EMDR and, you know, asking questions. And now we have a big community of over 10,000 members EMDR therapists from all over the world. We have a lot of free webinars, we have giveaways and weekly challenges. And it’s really, really fun to see EMDR therapist from all over the world communicating and collaborating and learning together and having, you know, having a passion for something that is, I think, bigger than each and every one of us. But when you know just being united, something that unites us, I think that our world needs more things that can unite us. And I think that the EMDR Learning Community is something that I, you know, I’ve been it was also, you know, back to talking about social media. It was my kind of solution to not having to go on Facebook or all these media platform. I just log into the EMDR learning community. It’s not on Facebook or any social media. And no cat videos.

 

Kim Howard  30:01

You know, some of them are so funny. I mean, come on.

 

Rotem Brayer  30:06

I know. But then again, and then four hours later, you’re like, what? Yeah, so it’s all about EMDR and therapy and research, and, you know, people sharing their experiences. It’s the EMDR learning community. You can Google it, or wherever you search things, or it’s EMDR dash learning.com

 

Kim Howard  30:28

Thank you. I will be happy to include that in the podcast description. So the audience of the podcast are EMDR therapists, maybe potentially EMDR therapists and the public if they want to learn more about EMDR therapy. So it’s kind of a three-pronged audience effort with the podcast. So anybody out there who wants to learn more about EMDR therapy can, obviously should come to us and learn a little bit more about it, if you’re the public, because that community that wrote just mentioned is close to EMDR therapist only, so public can’t go. Sorry, guys. But it’s a great resource. I’ve heard really wonderful things about it, so thank you for sharing that. Rotem, if you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be?

 

Rotem Brayer  31:10

Ah, a good question. Well, I can answer it two ways. If I had a time machine, I would probably be a musician. So if I had a time machine, I would start, you know, learning music. Yeah, I would be a musician. If I wasn’t an EMDR therapist, I think I would be a professional author. So I did, you know, publish one book, “The Art and Science of EMDR.” But I love writing. I think it’s such a therapeutic and creative process, so I would probably write more books.

 

Kim Howard  31:53

There you go. Well, and luckily, you could still, you can still do that in your professional capacity. What kind of instrument would you play if you were going to be a musician?

 

Rotem Brayer  32:01

I think that guitar, so I do have a guitar here about a year ago, and electric guitar, yeah, when I, when I, when I get, you know, when I have time, I’ll start learning. And I still, I’m still not there. I still, yeah, but I’ll get there. I’m determined.

 

Kim Howard  32:20

And then maybe you can include music therapy and your EMDR work. Because I know that’s a segment of population does that too. In the EMDR therapy world, they use arts therapy and music.

 

Rotem Brayer  32:31

Yes, yes. Dr. Jamie Marich, who recently published, and I know you had an I listened to the interview that you had with Jamie published her book, “You Lied to Me about God.” And there’s also a Spotify playlist that goes with the book that Jamie is terrific, yeah, as well.

 

Kim Howard  32:53

Music is good for the soul. I think yes. Is there anything else you’d like to add, Rotem?

 

Rotem Brayer  32:58

I think again, why would just to go back to the point of unity? I think whatever we do, we need more unity, and I love that. At least we have this in the EMDR world, we don’t have to be divided. We’re….I think we’re gathered together with a very specific mission. We know that we EMDR brings healing, more healing, to the world in different capacities. You know, some people do it in their offices. Some people go and volunteer in, you know, developing countries and war zones, and we just need more of that.

 

Kim Howard  33:38

Absolutely, that’s a good way to end the podcast. Thank you, Rotem.

 

Rotem Brayer  33:42

Thank you.

 

Kim Howard  33:43

This has been the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast with our guest, Rotem Brayer. Visit www.emdria.org for more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our Find an EMDR Therapist Directory with more than 17,000 therapists available. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this to free podcast, wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.