Kim Howard  00:05

Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association, or EMDRIA. I’m your host, Kim Howard. Today we have three guests who will discuss the intersection of EMDR therapy, neurodiversity-affirming care and perinatal mental health. We have EMDR Certified Therapists and Consultants-in-Training, Erin Wheeler and Skyler Ibarra, and EMDR Certified Therapist and Approved Consultant Jane Kosloff. Let’s get started. Today, we have three guests who will discuss the intersection of EMDR therapy, neurodiversity-affirming care and perinatal mental health. EMDR Certified Therapist and Consultants-in-training, Erin Wheeler and Skylar Ibarra and EMDR Certified Therapist and approved consultant Jane Kosloff, are here today. Thanks for being here, ladies. We are so happy that you said yes.

 

Skylar Ibarra  00:56

Thank you. Thank you. I was gonna say we’re so excited to be here and share our passion with you and everybody listening.

 

Kim Howard  01:05

Yeah, absolutely, we’re happy to have you. Can you guys tell us about your paths to become an EMDR therapists? Who wants to go first>

 

Skylar Ibarra  01:14

I’ll jump in. I had a path that maybe is familiar to some people, but I came through the skeptics path when I started really focusing in on trauma work. And I had multiple clients who came to me who experienced injuries through their EMDR experience. And so I went in and I decided I was like, Okay, if this is this evidence based practice, and I’m seeing some people who did not have the best experience. I want to be trained in this to understand what’s going on and how I can support my clients better and see if what I think about it. And so I kind of went in on it, you know, unsure that said having a family member who really felt that EMDR saved their life. So I was experiencing such different reports of what EMDR was, and I decided I’m going to find out for myself. And I took my training and I said, I understand why some people are utilizing this in a way that isn’t safe for especially complex trauma and for the clients that I’m seeing, and I also see what a magnificently powerful tool this is. And so as soon as I was done with my foundational training, I jumped into that certification path, because I also knew that with such a powerful instrument, I really wanted to make sure that I was up to the task of wielding it, and since then, I have just been so amazed time and time again of what we can do when We get out of people’s way and let their body seal themselves, and I just feel so grateful that I think, because I came in through that root of the skeptic, I appreciate it in just this really holistic and beautiful way, and it’s something that has Truly foundationally changed the way that I provide therapy.

 

Kim Howard  03:23

Thank you, Skylar.

 

Jane Kosloff  03:24

So for me, I came to EMDR in 2018. It was a bit of a transitional time in my professional life that I had worked in community mental health and then Community Health Center for about seven or eight years at that point, and I was transitioning into private practice, and in my work so far, working with trauma, I would kind of come up to a wall that I felt like I was able to support people to a degree, but then would feel like I get stuck, and I knew I was needing something else. And I came to EMDR, because I had colleagues who talked highly of it, I actually didn’t know a ton about it, but I’m like, Oh, if my friends like it, then it’s probably something I would like to so I got the foundational training. And I think what really kind of hooked me on it in that is the nature of the foundational training is pretty experiential, which one just works really well for my brain, I like being able to really kind of try it out and but also the nature of the practicum, where you both get to practice doing EMDR and experience a little bit of EMDR yourself, that was the part that really made me understand what it was like. Once I got a little bit of a flavor of it myself, like in that client role, I’m like, Oh, wow, this is really different than anything I’ve experienced. I could see how powerful this could be. And I’m like, Yes, this is something that I really want to keep going with. And then when I started working with clients, even at the very beginning, I think this is an experience probably a lot of therapists can relate to that out of. Foundational training, and you’re trying out. EMDR, I felt very clunky at it. I didn’t feel like I was quite wording things right. But even so, it was still working really well. And I was seeing these amazing impacts, and seeing that definitely, I was like, Yes, this is again, this is something I want to do. These impacts are really deep and amazing, even when I was at the very beginning phase of just kind of trying to figure out getting my footing, and then waited a few years and then eventually went for consultation and decided to be a consultant as well.

 

Kim Howard  05:38

Thank you, Jane.

 

Erin Wheeler  05:40

I’m really loving listening to the answers right now to these questions, because Skyler and Jane and I have been working for, I think, about two years together at deep diving training, researching, just, you know, getting to know each other and being passionate about this topic, and I’ve never heard their answer to this question. So I’m just, I this is really cool to hear, and it’s, it’s funny because I, yeah, I didn’t realize it, but we do have different paths coming into EMDR, I actually started out in group practice, my therapeutic work with the perinatal population. I work for a really wonderful group practice that focuses on that here in Chicago. And so that was like my my work starting in 2015 until 2019 when I took my basic training. And part of the reason, you know, like with Jane going into private practice I was interested in, you know, what’s the modalities that I want to, you know, really want to invest in and learn about. But also I just felt like I didn’t have, there was something missing in my work with perinatal clients because I didn’t know a lot about trauma. So, you know, Jane and Skylar were saying, oh, you know, I want to deepen, kind of, there’s a gap in the trauma work that I’m doing. I felt like I, you know, I couldn’t, I wanted, I could see trauma, but I didn’t know how to conceptualize it. And so for me, going through the EMDR training, and I did Mara Tesler Stein’s first ever training. It was in Skokie, Illinois, and it was in person. And right before the pandemic. It was beautiful. But, you know, I look at it and being introduced to the AIP model completely changed my life. It changed the work that I do with clients. I love EMDR, but my first love is the AIP model, because it’s ego states. It’s, you know, it’s flash technique, it’s, it’s, you know, all of these things are, are rooted in this way of just seeing the world and through patterns which I love, and connections, and this spider web, this building of this, this, you know, weaving in Word to try and make the meaning the adaptive and meaning that we’re searching for. So I just, it was, it’s just, it’s been, I’ve loved it and and becoming a consultant in training has just been more of that, like just finding ways in which sharing compassion about the AIP model can kind of be expressed, yeah.

 

Kim Howard  08:22

Thank you, Erin. How did you guys meet?

 

Skylar Ibarra  08:24

So, all three of us…this is Skylar. All three of us were consultants in training under Mara Teslar Stein, and we started and we were in different consultation groups. And she was like, You need to meet Jane. I think it was my very first consultant of consultation of consultants group, and then Aaron, I think your group was like the following week. And then I got really intimidated, because that’s what I do when I hear that other people are doing similar work, because that’s just my brain. And then we ended up all jumping in on the same Facebook comment and connecting with that and in the most neurodivergent story ever or meet cute, is that I scheduled our group. I did a Google group meet, and totally forgot about it. And then an hour later, I realized, oh my gosh, I’ve just, like, completely dropped the ball here. They were still talking and they were still talking. I got to jump in, and we talked for another hour, and it was like we had known each other for years. I think all three of us, I like to think that we were in like the 1.5 wave of this neuro-affirming paradigm movement. And so we were really immersed in it, and yet we were an also the perinatal piece of this was so we were so passionate about that as well. And. Nobody was talking about perinatal neurodiversity needs at that time, and so being able to come together within our nexus of interests and build on each other and challenge each other in these really powerful ways, all within the acceptance of our owner divergent traits and not just acceptance, but belonging in that, I think, has created for me, not just the most fruitful working relationship of my life, but it’s also looking through the AIP model. It has been so healing for me too, to be able to come within my full passions, within forgetting for an hour, and still being able to jump in and included. And so I think that it’s been we really, we truly live the work as well. And that, I think, is only I know I can speak personally, and I’m probably speaking for all three of us that are working together, has directly impacted the work I do with my clients and the healing that I see within them too. So I’m really grateful just for for this.

 

Kim Howard  11:14

That’s awesome. I mean, that’s one of the nice things about networking and or belonging to an association is that you get to make those professional connections with other people who do what you do. Because really, quite frankly, unless you do what somebody else does for a living, you really don’t understand what that work means, how that job is, what their day is like. So when you connect with other people who are like you, it’s such a relief, sometimes professionally, to see, oh, they totally get me, you know, they get everything I’m going through, and they understand the work and and that’s really important to keep your no matter what kind of work you do, that’s important to keep you kind of moving forward. And that momentum going in a good way, though, and that you have a network of people that you can lean on when you need to. So that’s, that’s awesome that you guys were able to connect.

 

Erin Wheeler  12:02

I was gonna say and celebrate wins as well. Because, you know, we, we don’t, we’re, we don’t get to celebrate that publicly, you know, right? Just to have someone to say, yeah, that was so that was so cool that I that’s amazing that you had that win with that client. So, yeah, yeah,

 

Kim Howard  12:18

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And Skylar, I wanted to go back to something that you touched on earlier about somebody that you knew who did not have a good experience with EMDR therapy. And this is the commercial for anybody who’s out there listening, who’s thinking about therapy, is that you know you need to do your homework. No matter what kind of issue you have or what kind of therapy you think might work for you, you need to make sure that the therapist that you’re reaching out to is knows their stuff. They they’re certified through some sort of body, they have all the credentials that they’re supposed to have to work with you, with your need and or the type of therapy that they’re proposing to you. Because I use this analogy all the time. You know, you don’t want your brain surgeon to say, well, I watched a YouTube video on it. I mean, you want to know that your brain surgeon actually went through some training and actually had some other professionals who had more experience than that person did come in the door and show them how to do things and help them with their career path. And so, you know, you got to do a little bit of homework. And I’ve also likened finding a therapist to, quite frankly, dating. You know you have sometimes the first person you meet with is not going to be the right fit, and if you as the client, come in, in the door, don’t feel that connection, or you feel like something’s a little bit off, trust your intuition and find somebody else just in a very plot way, say, hey, you know what? I don’t think this is going to work for me. I think I need to find another therapist and you just move on. And I know that’s difficult. I know that there’s a lot of people out there seeking mental health help, and I know that, you know a lot of times people are booked, and it might take weeks or months to get in. I know that’s a huge hassle, but it’s worth it for you to do the to do a little bit of homework at your end. So thanks for that reminder, Erin.

 

Skylar Ibarra  13:57

And just for those people who are looking for i Kim, I know you’ve actually said this on this podcast before, so I’m going to repeat your good advice. Of we all have either websites or Psychology Today, so if you’re going to somebody, there are no generalists anymore. I think the beauty of telehealth is that we all can niche down in a way that we couldn’t when we were so locked into just our own metropolitan area, and so make sure that the person is doesn’t just have has clicked a box that like, I’m doing this as well. But are they talking about it on their website? Are they able to talk about it with you? Use that most of us give a 15 minute consult call, and I find that it is so important to ask those good, like serious questions, not just “Will you work with me?” But also, “Who are you working with when you’re stuck? What do you do if I come with you with a complexity? How are you going to work with your network and your colleagues to support me?” Because I can tell you on a drop of a hat who my like, five favorite consultants that I go to. I also make it really clear that if a client is coming to me with an intersectional identity that I do not have, that I am doing that work to learn about the identity and paying professionals who offer their services who are members of that identity that I can learn from, because that is my job as the therapist, is not just to hit up my friends who share that identity. Sometimes we do that too, because I’m sharing my identity right within a very inclusive and inclusive, as well as mutual, beneficial way. But I really it’s important to me that I am paying people for their labor, and that I’m paying people who are providing such important insights into their identities, and that I immediately apply that to then my clients and my practice of my work, and that only improves me as a clinician, long past the individual I’m working with.

 

Kim Howard  16:06

Absolutely Skyler. We may have already touched on this, but in case you guys want to elaborate, what’s your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy?

 

Jane Kosloff  16:13

For me, one element that I really like and that just works really well for me, other than the fact that it’s just I find it so powerful and effective is that there’s a structure to it, there’s a protocol, but it’s also really flexible, and get that both, again, works really well for me as a human and kind of how I process information and work, but I find that also just gives a lot of ways to, Like, really work with the person in front of you, and it gives a lot of ways to be flexible with neurodivergent clients, to make sure it really fits what they’re needing and make sure it’s a good experience. So I think that mix of kind of having structure, but that flexibility is one of the things that I love so much about it.

 

Kim Howard  16:58

Absolutely. Thank you, Jane.

 

Erin Wheeler  17:01

Yeah, and I just to piggyback, I you sort of mentioned this, but I think just the stepping out, like getting out of the way, and seeing the the healing process, it really kind of helps me keep my ego in check as a therapist, you know, like, it’s not about me, and I’m not doing it, you know, and I get to witness it, and it’s beautiful and and then also, like, witness sort of not only going back and healing the past, but rediscovering resources that were already there, that maybe traumatic invalidation had told, you know, had been made to feel weird or Not, you know, acceptable, and so to, like, almost that rediscovery process and then, and then bringing that in and integrating that, and it’s like, just further reinforcing that, like, this is all there, you know, this is there, and we are just facilitators and supporters. And I just that feels like we’re right to me.

 

Kim Howard  18:05

Absolutely. Thank you, Erin.

 

Skylar Ibarra  18:07

I tongue-in-cheek, tell everyone My least favorite part of EMDR, but it truly is. My favorite part is that it works so well that it most people don’t even notice the shift. And so a lot of times part of EMDR, phase eight is going back the next session and going, okay, what are you noticing now? And I cannot tell you how many times that somebody is telling me that the, you know, disturbance in their body when we’re first starting to work, it’s eight, right? Like it’s just everywhere, it’s part, it’s alive in their body. And when we go back a week later, they go, What is it now? And they go, You know what? Skylar, I really don’t think that that was the right target, because it’s really not that big of a deal. Like, I don’t know. I I think we need to choose a different target so that I really know that this works. And so, like, no, like, and that’s what, that’s how you’re supposed to feel.

 

Kim Howard  19:00

It’s working.

 

Skylar Ibarra  19:01

Yeah, and it takes a couple targets for people to realize, like, this is what it’s supposed to be happening like, because I don’t think people appreciate how much energy it takes to carry our trauma along with us, and we’re spending all this energy, all the time just in to exist, just to survive, and when all of a sudden, that energy suck is taken away, and we’re able to just be in that moment, it is both the most natural thing in the world, world as well as the most revolutionary. So being able to witness that time and time again is by far my favorite part of being an EMDR therapist.

 

Kim Howard  19:51

Yeah, that’s that’s a great way to put it, Skylar. Thank you. And I there’s that whole thing about you’ve seen this, I’m sure, on social media, a bazillion times, you know? It takes 30 muscles in your face to make a frown and two to make a smile, or whatever the ratio is, I can’t remember, and so I would you know, you can only presume that trauma is the same way in your body, right? It takes all of that energy and all of that that what’s going on with you, to keep that inside of you, and then when it’s released, sometimes you don’t even realize it’s released until somebody asks you a week later, and you’re like, oh, yeah, kind of right. I don’t feel that anymore. So that’s, that’s really, that’s a good reminder. Thank you. Thank you, all of you. Thank you. Erin. What are the specific complexities or challenges when using EMDR therapy for neurodiversity-affirming care during the perinatal period?

 

Erin Wheeler  20:46

I just want to say that that is a complex question….

 

Kim Howard  20:51

And while I think, and we’ve talked about this before on the podcast with with Mara [Tesler] Stein before, so let’s put it out there that yes, you can do EMDR therapy during the perinatal period. There’s a lot of myths out there about that, so let’s just put that out there so that people going forward to listen to the rest of podcast understand that it can be done.

 

Erin Wheeler  21:11

Absolutely. Thank you. And one of the things that we really believe in is having certain shared assumptions in order to start to have more complex conversations. And so that is absolutely one of the ones that we have to share, is that EMDR in the perinatal period is not only not harmful and not ending, but that it’s, it’s something like we just talked about, you know, the load of carrying trauma versus being able to access healing, right? We have to honor that for our perinatal clients and offer that as well as our neurodivergent perinatal clients. So EMDR, that’s another myth that, you know, we’ll talk more about, but one of those assumptions we have to hold is that EMDR not only works for neurodivergent folks, but it is an incredibly powerful source of…it can be source of healing. And so the complexities when we’re thinking about neurodivergent perinatal clients, there’s complexities in general around how to bring that neurodiversity affirming framework into the ways in which we navigate gender protocol and the AIP model and doing EMDR. And then there’s also the special considerations with the perinatal period, which Mara does talk so much about in her three core tasks. She talks about parental identity development. She talks about emotional regulation and interpersonal relationships is like sort of three core tasks, and for our neurodivergent perinatal folks, we’re thinking about how, how their experience as neurodivergent perinatal is woven into a lifetime of experiences, probably, of ableism, you know, of that traumatic invalidation, and where that shows up in the challenges of meeting those three core tasks. Parental identity, development is probably the most, I think, significant one when we’re working with perinatal clients as they’re going through this whole new upheaval, you know, this, this up people, and then this sort of, like, how do I integrate, you know, this roles, my new body, my all these new aspects to the relationship. This, these new fears. And so, you know, one of the things that we’ve talked a lot about is with our perinatal neurodivergent folks. A lot of times we’re we’re welcoming them into this development, supporting them in this development space around their perinatal identity, as they’re also probably recently discovering their neurodivergence. And we know that there’s just this is we’ve been researching this. This is something that’s happening. I think a lot of clinicians are finding in their practice, more and more folks are identifying as neurodivergent, but particularly cis women in the reproductive years. One of our studies in 2024 it looked at the rates of ADHD identification within age groups, and it found that for the 25 to 40 year old group, so that spanning the reproductive years between 2020 and 2022 it had doubled for people who are being identified. So people aren’t wrong in terms of, like, you know, feeling this as more and more of their perinatal clients are identifying as ADHD, autistic, dyslexic, and so we’re helping support people in in what does that mean to have an affirming, neurodivergent parental identity? You know what needs to be healed? What needs to be integrated, and where do we find that, that locus of self in that in both of those, you know, aspects and maybe others too, right, other aspects of social, you know, social identity and areas of invalidation. So that is the framework that we have, and it’s a complex one, but I think identity development is such an important part in using EMDR with this population. And just on a personal note, I will say like, I guess I want to emphasize that there’s so much potential and hope and like reason why EMDR is a great fit for our perinatal clients who are neurodivergent during this time. And I’m I am an example of that. I was diagnosed after my first child, and had already gone through EMDR training. Started doing EMDR myself, and really focused on a lot of the internalized ableism that was coming up as a parent we think about, you know what a good enough mother is, it’s very wrapped up in ableism, right? And so my executive functioning struggles were absolutely tied up in how I felt good enough as a parent and as a woman and a mother and a wife and all those things. So what I found was that through EMDR, not only did I find I was able to, kind of like, have build an identity that felt right for me. I also found I wasn’t as anxious and I wasn’t depressed anymore. And that’s not to say that there aren’t people who have co occurring depression anxiety, and they’re, you know, and they’re also identified as neurodivergent but for me, it really brought home how much that internalized ableism was keeping me from being able to feel the fullness of being the parent that I wanted to be and the person that I wanted to be. So it’s changed. It’s absolutely changed my life. I’m so grateful for it. I would not have been able to do that work in a CBT in a talk therapy way?

 

Kim Howard  27:05

Yeah. Thank you, Erin. And I, we’ve talked about this on the podcast before, and I will reiterate that Oprah said it best that being a parent. I don’t know if she used the word mother or parent, I really can’t remember, but being a parent is the hardest job on the planet. And she nailed that very well, because it really, truly is, and it’s there’s all these things that you know, whether, when you realize you want to have children and you you you decide you’re going to have them, whether you adopt or you have them yourself or your surrogate, you know, all of a sudden you’re presented with this other, this little, tiny human being, or this small human being that you are now responsible for in every way, and that’s a huge load for everybody. And so it can be pretty stressful. So, you know. So I you know, and you do have this whole thing about, you know, what you’re presenting in the public and what is going on behind the closed doors of your home, and so I’m glad that you were able to to find what you needed, to feel better about what you were doing, because, you know, yeah…

 

Erin Wheeler  28:14

Well, and just, I want to, yeah, I use this analogy of like, and I never know the difference between analogy And a metaphor. So maybe it’s metaphor or an analogy, not sure. But of, you know, carrying around a bag with holes in it, and, you know, and that being my experience as someone who was undiagnosed neurodivergent, everyone’s like, why are you dropping these balls? Like, why don’t you just have the bag that doesn’t have the holes in it? I’m like, Well, I don’t know where to get that bag. I don’t, you know. And finally, kind of, in my 20s, being able to, like, find these, these hacks, you know, that could close up the the bag a little bit, you know, and then getting to pregnancy and postpartum, and the weight of, you know, having these, like marbles in this bag, you know that that, you know that has this holes in it, that every, every parent, has 100 extra marbles, you know, in their bag. Yes, and maybe they’re they, maybe they’re experiencing having some holes for the first time, you know. But this bag that I was carrying around had was barely patched together, very, you know, poorly patched together, and not, you know, and, and now had more holes and more marbles and, and so, you know, while I think it’s important to say, you know, gosh, parenting is so hard, and everybody has a hard time, I think to just, you know, I remember feeling like, Yes, and I don’t, I feel like there’s something more here, right, right? So there can be a way of feeling both seen and unseen at the same time and in those moments with parenting and as a neurodivergent parent,

 

Kim Howard  29:56

Yeah, absolutely. Does anybody else want to comment on that question?

 

Skylar Ibarra  29:59

Yeah, I just want to really re emphasize what, Eri, what you said, which is seen and unseen. I think that’s so beautiful within the work that we’re doing, specifically at the crossroads roads of neurodivergency and Perinatal because what, regardless of what your neurodivergency is, be it autistic, ADHD, learning disabilities, TBI, so much comes online at the same time during the perinatal period. Everyone’s struggling right now. Now more than ever, there are so many demands economically from families and needing both parents to work, there’s so much less supports than you know, and it’s just parenting was never meant to be solo. And who is it solo now? Right? And so that is a truth for everyone, and when you have lived your entire life in a world not designed for you that does not have these inherent supports that other neurotypical people don’t see them as supports. They just see them as normal, right? But for us, their normal is not helping us, and our needs are not being met simultaneously. And so while something like just track your babies bio, you know what they’re putting in and what they’re just taking out for other people, yeah, they’re tired, and maybe they forget a feeding. I know for me, it was an impossible task, and one where then my son had some weight gain issues in the beginning, and then I was seen as not doing what I should to take care of my son, when really the struggle that I was experiencing was having to all these executive functioning tasks, the task, all of these new sensor experiences all at once, and that was not being recognized and honored. And so while I was both seen as a new parent, and yeah, this is hard for everyone, and unseen as a neurodivergent parent, and the fact matter is, is that you are also just handling even like, not only does your bag have holes in it, but you have even more marbles than we are expecting. And so allowing for this both and.

 

Kim Howard  32:30

Yeah, and if you’re undiagnosed at that point in your life, then there is probably, I would presume, from the medical community, some cast of blame on you like you’re purposely doing that, when it’s you’re not purposely doing that, you know?

 

Skylar Ibarra  32:48

Or you just don’t care. And I think every especially ADHD and autistic person, has been told throughout their entire life, whether they’re diagnosed or not, that you’re not trying hard enough, you lack the right skills, and you don’t have the correct follow through. And so because of that, your struggles are your consequence for your feelings. And so if that is the working model we have of self, and then we’re being cast into creating this parental identity, what are we supposed to assume?

 

Jane Kosloff  33:21

Good point. Skyler, thank you. And one thing though, that this may sound like a strange time to bring this up, but that gives me hope, though, is like conversations like this, like having the opportunity here to have a conversation like this, for more people to understand these dynamics, because I really do see EMDR is such a powerful way to help support neurodivergent folks in the perinatal period, to start, really to process these different experiences, to help, kind of work towards developing this like positive neurodivergent parental identity and but part of kind of The start of that is just more people even understanding these experiences, understanding the differences that neurodivergent folks have in the perinatal period. What are those experiences like? So then therapists can come in and support in a way that’s really helpful, that they can that clients can be more seen in this experience. I just, I feel hopeful in that these conversations are happening, so hopefully more folks can get that support and feel more seen Absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  34:26

That’s one of the reasons that we do the podcast. It’s it’s not just about bringing together members, and that’s that’s fantastic, don’t, don’t misunderstand me, but it’s really about sharing the information in a public way so that people who are not members and or the public who are not in the therapy world understand more how EMDR can help with whatever their needs might be and why it works, and so people like you could advise make it happen. Thank you. Skyler. What successes have you seen using EMDR therapy for these populations?

 

Skylar Ibarra  34:27

Yeah, so I’m going to keep on on the route of parental identity development. And recently, I had a client who, after a lot of just neurodivergent, affirming conversations and reprocessing, she spontaneously said one time, oh my gosh, I’m not this way because of bad parenting. I’m not forgetful. My I’m not my house isn’t dirty because I was forced to clean my room when I was little. I’m ADHD and that. And for this person, they’re beginning to see ADHD traits in their young child, and they go, Oh, that means it’s, I get to support my child instead of feel like I have to correct my child to not be the way I am. And I think that that was just such this beautiful opening, because for so long, she had seen her entire task of parenting as basically a reaction to what she saw made her the way she was, which was not supported in society, within her struggles, within what it meant to be a She didn’t know that she was an ADHD, or she I like to think about how if we have kind of, like, quote, unquote, one standard deviation away from normal, it is moralized. We’re not trying hard enough two standard deviations away from normal, it’s then pathologized. And so she was in this kind of, there’s something wrong with me? I’m not good, I’m bad. We can hear all these negative cognition coming up around just not understanding, oh, I’m an ADHDer. And so the narrative that she had constructed in her head was that the decisions my parents made is why I am the way I am, and so as a parent, I have to basically act in response to that so that my child doesn’t have the same struggles that I do. And that makes a lot of sense, right? I think all of us want more for our children than we give to us, but when we realize it is not about correcting and punishing away these traits and within ourselves we don’t understand and haven’t been accepted by the world. But instead, I get to create a affirming home so that he understands himself, and he understands that he has access to supports and accommodations, and also that ADHD joy and what that means within our household to be creative and spontaneous, and these deep interests and the beauty of an ADHD experience, nervous system, brain life, and that is my role as a parent is to allow him to understand and accept himself more, not trying to diminish who he is, so that society can somehow give him a pass. And it was we talk a lot about paradigm shift, and you could see in that moment the paradigm shift, and whether it is neurodivergent paradigms shift from a pathology paradigm to an affirming paradigm, or we’re looking at reprocessing from a negative cognition to a Positive cognition. We’re looking at fundamental changes in self, which have then this direct influence on the next generation, and just how beautiful that was. And so I think, and I see that time and time again within with my perinatal clients, where they they think there’s a lot of conversations about generational trauma and for them, really being able to own their the generational ableist trauma and make very real changes in how they go and how they see themselves within their family role in shepherding in this next generation.

 

Kim Howard  39:21

Yeah, that’s a great way to put it. Thank you, Skylar.

 

Erin Wheeler  39:24

Can I ask her, what would it been, what would have been like to go into reprocessing of those earlier memories without that adaptive information about that period, or having had that paradigm shift in resourcing, right, like in that phase two?

 

Skylar Ibarra  39:37

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think you know what I was saying, like, the conversation piece is just as important as the reprocessing piece, because if you don’t have that basis of a neuro-affirming identity, what are you going to then sew into, as you could do the reprocessing without knowing, oh, it’s not that I’m, you know, going. Back to the thing of like, not trying hard enough that, you know, not enough skills. But instead, it’s not any of that. It is who I am. I like to talk about neuro-identity, right? Just like we have any other identity development allowing for that positive neuro-identity. And then when we have the reprocessing and we understand I am enough. I am a good person. I you know, I’m worthy. We can only do that within this beautiful I, at least within my work, what I’ve seen is that it’s only really takes hold if we’ve had that really good phase two work around what it means to be an ADHD or autistic or dyslexic, or being a parent with a TBI or whatever neurodivergency We are working with, understanding self and understanding that that self is valid.

 

Jane Kosloff  40:52

Yeah, and I think a lot of people, it just has not been something that they have come across, that there’s an alternative that even if maybe like being an ADHDer or is not new information, new information to them they may have never heard or thought about it as something other than like a problem for themselves, a deficit, something that is broken within themselves. And if that’s the only information you’ve ever heard, then certainly it your mind just wouldn’t go there. But it that that is not the only way to view it.

 

Kim Howard  41:24

Absolutely Jane and I wish, I, I wish I’d known you guys when we were raising our son. Our son is 27 and he has ADD [ADHD] he was diagnosed in junior high school. And both phrases that you guys were using, you know about this executive functioning, and, you know, paying attention and not turning things in, and those kinds of things that happen with schoolwork, you know, messy rooms, all the things you know, I look back now, and I think I was not as well educated as I could have been about how to parent somebody who was an ADHD kid, I wish, I just wish, you know, that I had known more, you know, because I think more research has come out and over the years and things have gotten. Think society’s a little bit different in terms of how they approach people who are neurodivergent. Gosh, I wish I had those 10 or 15 years ago. They would have been great. So thank you all. I was, go ahead….

 

Skylar Ibarra  42:21

Yeah, I was gonna, I like to think about as car seats. Like I look at the car seat that, you know, the bringing home baby pictures from 1986 and I look at it, and I’m like, Oh, my god. I can’t believe that I survived this. But my mom didn’t have a car seat. She got brought home in her mom’s arms, in the front seat without a seat belt. And I think that the really beautiful thing about being human is that we always have the opportunity to learn something new, and we get to have that and bring that forward and have these conversations. And I know for me, my Mom identifies as autistic, and so having these conversations where neither one of us knew until adulthood what that means, and being able to process for her and for me and what that was like within the conversation of parent to child. And then when I turn and I look at my son, who is autistic, and what that means for me to him, and I think that it is really just incredible that I get to put him in such a seat for car seat, I get to create a neuro-affirming home for him in a way that was not accessible to my mom. And also, like my mom was amazing, and she did these things that I don’t she just felt naturally connected to and it worked for me. And so I think that, and also I survived childhood in not great car seats, right? Like we do the best we can, and actually a lot of times the best we can is pretty good, right? Right? And also we get to incorporate more, and I think having that ability to incorporate and, know, and so, yeah, I wish I did better. And that’s the beautiful part of AIP. That’s the beautiful part of being a human, is that as we grow, we can lean into our compassion and pass that on.

 

Kim Howard  44:22

Absolutely. Thank you. Skyler. Jane, are there any myths that you would like to bust about working with these populations? I’m sure there are many, but if you can think of like the top two or three, that’d be great, or one or two doesn’t matter.

 

Jane Kosloff  44:37

Gonna focus in on just building on a little of the myth that even we’ve already started talking about Kim, that you mentioned at some point at the beginning around that, like, you know, we know that we can do EMDR with perinatal folks, right? And Aaron, you touched on that there’s that similar idea that shows up with neurodivergent folks. And I want to dig in a little bit more, because. Yeah, this is the intersection of those two. And I think looking at that is this really important for access, kind of as a foundation here, so neurodivergent perinatal clients can have the option of EMDR, of therapists suggesting it as an option, and that, again, there’s this overlap here of these myths that show up. So again, we already kind of established that the perinatal part of that that, you know, yes, you can do EMDR with a pregnant person, and then all the different kind of iterations of how that shows up in the perinatal world of, you know, can you do EMDR in the situation, that situation. And then again, there’s similarities that show up for neurodivergent clients, but a little bit different with perinatal clients. A lot of it is around concern of like, health of the pregnant person, health of the baby’s protection, right? It’s wanting to make sure working in a way that’s safe with neurodivergent folks. I think it can often show up that, you know, we’re taught this protocol, and that things go this way. And then when we see, when a therapist sees something that maybe they don’t and other clients that they can then kind of stop and be like, Oh, is this okay? Can I keep going? And a couple examples of that would be like, for ADHDers, sometimes I’ve seen online or with consultants that I’m working with, the question coming up of, like, oh, like, Can I do EMDR with ADHDers? Like, are they gonna be able to focus enough to be able to so it’ll be effective? So that sort of question will come up. And again, to be clear, it is a myth. Every person is individual. There’s gonna be individual considerations. But having ADHD having differences with focus and attention, that does not rule out EMDR. But another example that comes up quite a lot is around aphantasia and aphantasia is around difference is around folks who cannot mentally visualize or can with a quite a bit of strain, though it’s not a an easy thing to be able to visualize mentally. And so that often comes up as, Hey, can I do EMDR here in this situation? And part of that example, I think, comes up because in the resourcing that is kind of traditionally taught, which would be like calm space, you know, things that are really based around visualization, that somebody is used to using that as their main resources, which is a lot of people, I think, and then somebody that that particularly of doing it isn’t accessible, that is when that question can come up, and where I think it can be really kind of helpful to kind of think for a Moment on kind of the neurodivergent kind of side here is really thinking, like, again, to be clear, with a Fantasia, that is also not a reason that EMDR can’t work. And I think what could be helpful is thinking about what is kind of the goal, like, of the exercise, like, if you’re doing calm place, what are you hoping to kind of accomplish with that client, right? And then it can lead you to think of an activity or a grounding exercise or something else that the person would be able to tap into. Because with the EMDR, like with the example, again, of visualizing, it’s not actually the goal, in and of itself, to help somebody to be able to create this really vivid internal image of like a beautiful, calm place that is a means towards an end. And there are lots of other ways to get there. So I again bring up those examples that and there are a lot of other ones that can show up with various other processing differences that are pretty common for neurodivergent folks like another one would be maybe like identifying emotions might look different and that these are not. There’s no like research. They’re anecdotally what we see like these are not reasons that somebody cannot do EMDR. It just may take a little bit of the therapist learning a little more to understand, maybe getting consultation, learning from lived experience, voices, to just know how to adapt in a way that will feel good for everybody. So again, it’s wanting to just make sure that there is access, and knowing that these are not reasons that EMDR is not an option for somebody.

 

Kim Howard  49:18

Thank you, Jane. What advice do you have for EMDR, therapist listening on how they can help their neurodivergent clients who are in a perinatal period of their lives?

 

Erin Wheeler  49:29

When Skylar was talking about her working with her client, who whose child, what it was becoming clear might be neurodivergent, and then like seeing themselves parent that child In what felt like a more neuro, like, affirming way. I think there’s just so that intergenerational stuff is so beautiful for resourcing. Like, I mean, we really can’t take for granted how much resourcing is important. I think in like Skylar said, like, bringing that and we need to have that information in the press. And in order to bring it back, you know, into these memories, and sometimes that’s built up in these moments of parenting, so we can actually install the, you know, the RDI, the resource of the self that is able to give that that compassion and that curiosity to the child, and then bring that resources apart in the self, right as part of the team, the internal team, and the team that can then show up and be called upon, potentially if needed, as an interweave, an ego state interweave during reprocessing. So there’s just a mill, a multitude of ways of being creative, but there’s just once a client is able to tap into new information and new experiences that are affirming. That is, it’s just it, I just say resource, resource, right? You know, tap it in, install, you know, like, do, you know, do all that, because you’re that is what’s going to, like, help the reprocessing go. I mean, it’s just there. Everybody’s ready, everything’s ready for that, if we take the time to really strengthen those networks.

 

Kim Howard  51:09

Thank you, Erin.

 

Skylar Ibarra  51:11

And, I think, to add on to the resourcing piece, one of the things that we just don’t have enough of is positive role models. What does it look like to parent within a neuro-affirming paradigm? And so that’s where the beauty of social media really comes alive. I know that there’s so much pressure, and sometimes we want to say, like, Don’t compare yourself to other parents, but this is one time where I think we can, where we can say like, oh, this is my ADHD yourself. This is my Autistic Self, parenting authentically and being able to connect clients or just even to for yourself, to start to learn from these lived experience parents who are so generously showing aspects of their lives and what it means to be an autistic Mother, what it means to be an ADHD parent, or whatever that might be, and being able to connect people to that so they have something really a felt sense of what it can be like. And because I think a lot of times we have these kind of, you know, acceptance weeks, we just had autism acceptance week, and there is a huge difference between acceptance and belonging, and there’s a huge difference between like, I’m different, and I have all these struggle, struggles, and I’m okay, like that is completely cognitive. That does not come in, down into the body, into the nervous system. We don’t feel that, but going, Oh, wow, look at this parent who’s doing this amazing job parenting their neurodivergent kid, because usually one will will come to the other, and I can do that too. And actually, it really feels good when I’m able to parent in this way that I’m not trying to make my kid into this, you know, fit my kid into the mold, but I’m breaking the mold so that my child can thrive. And that’s something that we need to actively seek out, and encourage our clients to seek out as well.

 

Kim Howard  53:08

Absolutely. Thank you, Skylar

 

Jane Kosloff  53:10

Another piece, I just want to reinforce that I know we’ve touched on, and I think Aaron, you mentioned kind of in some of your own experiences, but that, again, that this is a really the perinatal time period is a really common time for people to discover their neurodivergence, and if that is coming up, to really give time to, you know, to really explore that and to take that seriously, to be able to, then again, ask Skyler and Aaron both talking about adding that information in for resourcing, if that ends up feeling right, and just really giving space for that exploration, if that is coming up for somebody.

 

Kim Howard  53:51

Thank you, Jane. What would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR therapy with this population?

 

Erin Wheeler  53:58

Both in and out of the EMDR community, I think it’s really important to be talking about the goals of EMDR, like, what it really can help with. And I think sometimes we still find, we have all found, you know, that it’s still showing up that question being answered within the pathology paradigm, so really targeting, like, the external measures of functioning as the reason to do EMDR, like, oh, becoming less emotionally reactive or intense, or, you know, being able to focus better and and really, just like, not being too much for people, basically, but like saying it in and, you know, I guess that’s where it’s really EMDR has has the potential to reinforce that traumatic invalidation. So I think we have to just be very careful about how we talk about the goals. And I think it just be really important for people to know this is this is not, in any way a means to an end of making someone more neurotypical.

 

Kim Howard  55:00

Yeah, thank you, Erin. Good advice. How do you practice cultural humility?

 

Skylar Ibarra  55:05

As an EMDR therapist, I think I was already talking about this earlier, but neurodivergence is one part of the organism of identity, and each person is going to be coming in to our office or onto our screen with their own intersectional identity. And a big thing to remember is that culture informs divergence, and so I think about I was on an international leadership trip, and there was a few Swedes on the trips, and a few Mexicans on the trip, and even the way that both cultures view time, right? So for the Mexicans, the Swedes were completely irrational. Of needing to be five minutes early was already late, and they were seen as rigid, and they were seen as overly, you know, dysregulated around that. And then, you know, the sweets looking at the Mexicans were, look at how loose you are with time, and how disrespectful that is. And what does this mean? And and, you know, you don’t care. And so there’s all these assumptions. But if you are an ADH year who struggles with time awareness, Corona section, one of my favorite words ever, then you’re right. That might not be an issue if you are in Mexico. Meanwhile, if you’re in Sweden, that all of a sudden we talked about the difference between like values to pathology. That could be pathology like, What do you mean? You’re always 15 minutes late. This is awful. Meanwhile, on the other right, you have also, maybe you really need things to be on time, and that’s something that creates a lot of stability and consistency for you, and you’ve and not having that creates then a lot of dysregulation in the body. Well, that’s going to be exacerbated if you’re in a country that has a looser interpretation of time and time commitments. Well, you’re not going to see that in Sweden. So when we are then coming that international lens and whatever you’re working with into the therapy space, it’s really about curiosity. How do you understand these other aspects of your culture. I’m talking about family of origin culture, academic culture, employment culture. I was a roller derby skater for a long time. Derby culture is very real, right? So whatever it is for you, and How then are you? How do you feel, like whatever structure isn’t built for you, and and then being able to go into that deep exploration, I just also, because I think a big thing to remember through all this is that we’re not we’re not talking about neurodivergent individuals. We’re also talking about neurodivergent families. You’re not going to find 1 ADHDer just completely out on their own in a family, genetically, and I would say, probably even within adoption, I have never met a neurodivergent adoptee who isn’t finding their way, one way or another into a neurodivergent family. That could just be, because I know a lot of neurodivergent people. So very much a bias statement right there, but recognizing also that so often our family normalizes aspects of our neurodivergency and has created adaptations over time and interpretations of their wider culture. And so being also exploring that, how did you understand the culture at large, but also, how did your family explain it? And and really being able to go in there, and again, curiosity, curiosity about the individual’s interpretation of their experience, paid consultation to understand the larger structures of that culture, so that you can come to a place of known curiosity, and you’re not relying on your client to teach you about the overarching beliefs of the culture.

 

Kim Howard  59:09

You unpacked a lot, and I want to, I felt like I have to comment on several things because it was all so good. So let me try to remember everything that you talked about. So I’m a military brat, and I’ve mentioned this before on the podcast, and you talked about time, and five minutes is early and on time is late. And so that’s the culture I grew up in with my family, because that’s who we were, but my dad was also German. And so you talk about that whole concept of of time, but I’ve also in the past, many, many, many moons ago, I did proposal writing for a Latino owned company, and they are more loosey goosey about time, and they’re not as concerned about being on time. And there’s a, there is a cultural shift that has to happen when you work with people who didn’t grow up like you did, right? And so and then you also talked about you won’t find, you typically won’t find somebody who’s neurodivergent in a family, sort of a society. Other person, because you’re right. I see it my own family. My husband is has ADHD. And so you look at that, and you’re right. You know that is we have learned over 30 years to work, 30 plus years to how to, how to, how to work with that. And I really am intrigued by the fact that you used to do roller derby. And so I’m hoping that when we, when I asked that question at the end of the interview, if you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be? Because I have never had, in three years, anyone say that they would be a roller derby person, skater. I don’t know what the term is, but yeah, that’s really awesome. Thank you for talking about that, because I really do think that is important, that that you understand where your clients are coming from a little a little bit or a lot, you know, so that you can understand how they are, because that that really does matter. So thank you very much for clarifying all this points. Scholar, I appreciate that. Do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource you suggest, either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

 

Erin Wheeler  1:01:00

I love everything about Tom Zimmerman and everything that he’s doing. I was able to meet him at the Washington DC conference, and I just the stuff that he’s the book that he’s putting out on EMDR, and complex drama, the training coming up through touch tone. He’s not explicitly saying that he’s like talking about ways to support and be flexible and accommodate around like working with neurodivergent folks. But man, I found so much of his shifts and giving different options for getting to the same state, different means to the same end, so empowering in terms of what we were talking earlier about, I mean, he had a client use positive experiences eating a sandwich, like in session, like that. I just think that’s brilliant. And so, you know, if you’re looking for more, kind of like a deepening of some of the ways to work with these complexities, I think he just offers a lot.

 

Kim Howard  1:01:59

Thank you, Erin.

 

Jane Kosloff  1:02:00

And, if it’s okay to mention resources that we’re connected to as well. We had an a blog post come out through EMDRIA , and there will be a part two soon around myths, going deeper into myths that can get in the way of supporting neurodivergent clients with EMDR. So that is a resource that folks can read more about. And there was the reset. Go With That Magazine all around neurodiversity and EMDR and I, there’s a lot of great articles there. So I wanted to highlight that that’s another good resource.

 

Kim Howard  1:02:33

Thank you, Jane. I will be happy to include links to the blog post and the magazine, and then also Tom Zimmerman, wherever he might be in, in the worldwide web and and some people can look him up and get that information too. So that’s great. Thank you.

 

Skylar Ibarra  1:02:49

Your therapists, who are wanting to deepen, our friend, Christine MacInnis, runs the neurodiversity affirming EMDR Facebook group, and that is just an absolute wealth of information. She also just is so giving of her time. So that was a place that I definitely send my consultees to, just so that they can understand and look at the archives of the conversations being had.

 

Kim Howard  1:03:19

Yeah, and I, Christine has been on the podcast earlier this spring, and I will find that link, and I will include that in this podcast description as well. So thank you, Skylar.

 

Erin Wheeler  1:03:28

Yeah, finally, just if, if people are wanting to learn more about, you know, just the basic kind of philosophy of care for for neuro-affirming or in the perinatal period. Skyler, Jane and I have a four hour training through Touchstone Institute. So it’s a, you know, it’s not EMDR specific, but we do talk about, you know, trauma and that the neurodiversity affirming lens in working with perinatal trauma.

 

Kim Howard  1:03:53

Ok, I’d be happy to include that link as well.

 

Erin Wheeler  1:03:56

Thank you.

 

Kim Howard  1:03:56

Thank you, Erin. If you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be?  No, get the website now somebody doesn’t want to charge you $20,000 when you want to do it one day, right?

 

Skylar Ibarra  1:04:00

Well, I’m going to really disappoint you. So when I was deciding if I was going to go back to grad school or not, my alternative was to open up a book shop, flower shop and coffee shop all in one. And I’ve literally had this idea since I was seven years old, and it was going to be called The Reading Grounds because, like grounds of flowers and grounds of coffee, you’re welcome. If anybody wants to steal my idea, you’re welcome to. So it would definitely be surrounded by coffee and flowers and reading books, so that would I love it, building community? Yeah,

 

Kim Howard  1:04:45

I don’t drink coffee, but I would totally go there because I’d order tea or something. That’s awesome. I love that. I love that Skylar. Thank you.

 

Jane Kosloff  1:04:55

For me, one of the things that I thought about a lot when I was a kid that I still think would be. Really fun career with being an artist of some type. I don’t even know what type, but for a long time I really wanted to be an artist again. I didn’t even have like, a particular like, it wasn’t like, just painting or sculpting or something, but really immersing in that and creating in that way always sounded so fun.

 

Kim Howard  1:05:17

Yeah, it does. Thank you, Jane.

 

Erin Wheeler  1:05:20

Yeah, similarly, I I’ve been planning my 40th birthday party, which is happening tomorrow, and it’s a big, a big party, and I got really into making, like, center pieces and going to Dollar Tree and like, spray painting them and putting contact and, like, finding little figurines and doing fake flower, like decoration. So that would be, like, my thing is, like, I’d be like, creating, like, center pieces, like itch, center pieces for people.

 

Kim Howard  1:05:50

I love it. I love it, Erin. And we all have all those 10 talents that we’re supposed to all have and find and utilize. So those are all. Those are all great. And those are all pretty unique. I don’t think anybody on the podcast before has ever mentioned those ideas for if they weren’t an EMDR therapist. So thank you guys for sharing that. Is there anything else you want to add?

 

Skylar Ibarra  1:06:09

I just want to really say that these are such important waters to swim in, and whether this is something that is your passion or something that maybe you’re listening to for the first time, I really want to encourage people to reach out to learn more, because one thing we didn’t mention was that ADHDers and autistic folks especially are much more likely to develop a PMED, so a perinatal mood and anxiety disorder throughout the perinatal period. And so if you are working with the perinatal population, you are working with autistic and ADHD years, whether they’re identified or not. And so being able to incorporate the neuro-affirming paradigm really means that you are opening up your doors even wider and allowing for more people to come to you for their own healing journey. And it is, I mean, I think all three of us, we have really great alternative things that we would do, but being able to walk the path of emerging parents and being able to allow them to know within themselves that they are enough, and what that then how that reverberates throughout generations, is the biggest honor I could ever imagine having, and it’s something that so many more people can incorporate this and allow for that as well. And we’re here. It’s the time, and what a beautiful place to be.

 

Kim Howard  1:07:44

Absolutely, absolutely. Thanks. Skylar.

 

Jane Kosloff  1:07:46

I also want to add in for the therapists who are listening that this is a lot of information, and it may be a lot of new information. We have been deep, deep diving for years on this, and I feel still feel like I have a ton to learn. I don’t feel like there’s any end point to learning this sort of stuff. But I mentioned that because if you’re wanting to get started, it is okay to just start with one corner that interests. You start there, and then the information will build on itself. This isn’t information that you get all in one training or in one book. It is a process. It takes time, and it is normal. If it’s like, Where do I even start? It’s a lot of information, but it’s it’s really a rich journey again, to learn this and then bring it in to support your clients, or maybe yourself and your family.

 

Kim Howard  1:08:43

Thank you, Jane. Thank you all for being here today. I appreciate your time.

 

Skylar Ibarra  1:08:46

Thank you so much.

 

Kim Howard  1:08:48

This has been the Let’s Talk EMDR Podcast with our guests, Erin Wheeler, Skylar Ibarra and Jane Kosloff. Visit www.EMDRIA.org for more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our Find an EMDR Therapist Directory with more than 17,000 therapists available. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this fee podcast wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.