Kim Howard  00:06

Welcome to the let’s talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association, or EMDR, I am your host. Kim Howard, in this episode, we are talking with EMDR, certified therapist and consultant in training, Roberto Lara, about EMDR therapy with the immigrant population. Let’s get started today. We are speaking with EMDR, certified therapist and consultant in training, Roberto Lara, to discuss EMDR therapy with immigrants. Thank you, Roberto, for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

 

Roberto Lara  00:36

Hi, Kim, thank you for having me here today.

 

Kim Howard  00:39

Roberto, can you tell me about your path to becoming an EMDR therapist?

 

Roberto Lara  00:43

Yes, absolutely. So my EMDR passes started back in 2010 I was seeking healing for myself as a client, and I have to work through some childhood trauma, so at the time, I found a therapist that presented and invited me to EMDR. It was really powerful healing experience, but it came with a lot of difficulties in between sessions, and to overcome that, I just left with curiosity of how EMDR could have done better. I think at the time, resourcing and doing that phase of EMDR wasn’t as strong as it is right now. And so that led me with curiosity. I mean, forward, fast forward to 2020 I trained with with Cassidy the other way, and travel Hardcastle. And then I am an EMDR certified therapist, consultant training. And I am an EMDR basic training coach. And I’m enjoying, you know, coaching and teaching EMDR now it’s one of my favorite things to do.

 

Kim Howard  01:45

I love it. I love hearing people’s origin stories and finding out how they they came to EMDR. And some people come through their own therapy practice. Some people come through other people mentioning in it several times, because their first reaction is, sounds a little out there, but and then they they keep getting more signals to come to attend a training or to learn more about it, and they finally do. So we always like to hear that. So I’m glad that I’m glad that you’re here, and I’m glad that that worked for you.

 

Roberto Lara  02:16

Yeah, absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  02:17

So what’s your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy?

 

Roberto Lara  02:21

There are a few things. But I think the most wonderful thing is, is witnessing all humans heal through gaining perspective and insight on their own experiences and emotions, you know. And at times, this happened just in one or a few sessions, you know, how people click, you know, into that clicks and makes sense for them, you know. And also the part that I really love is, is a creative part, incorporating creativity, you know, into EMDR, so following protocols that we have learned, but having that artsy part into EMDR, combining you with different things, especially with more complex clients, you know, the more complexity is, the more creative we have to be in order to facilitate healing.

 

Kim Howard  03:05

Yeah, that is very true. And I I feel like in the therapy room, it’s you guys are given a lot of different scenarios with many different clients, and so you really have to customize your approach to your client based on what their needs are and what you know as a professional. And so that’s a lot of work. I mean, that’s, that’s like waking up every day and creating a custom shirt to wear or something. It’s, it’s a lot of work that goes into into the therapy room when you’re a therapist. So I appreciate all of that that you do, and everyone else out there who’s listening, who might be a therapist. So thank you guys for doing that work.

 

Roberto Lara  03:41

Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think that’s the most wonderful thing. It’s just kind of having all these, all these tools in our toolbox, you know. And I think I might know the Virgin brain helps with that, because I can just pull things out, you know, incorporate them, you know, and see how effective they are. And, yeah, be successful in the job.

 

Kim Howard  04:00

That’s awesome. So let’s get to what we’re talking about here today, which is EMDR therapy for immigrants. So can you talk to us about the specific complexities or challenges of EMDR therapy for immigrants?

 

Roberto Lara  04:12

I think we all have a unique experience. I am an immigrant by itself, and my immigration process and my immigration experience is completely different to anyone that can sit in front of me or come to an office for healing. I think there’s complicity in the way of what happens before, the reason why immigrate through the immigration journey, and while we are immigrants here, I think there’s a lot of identity, sense of belonging, and all things that happen. I think the biggest piece that sometimes we miss is the system of oppression. I think definitely, being an immigrant, we have to re shape our identity, you know, to become a different person, that we have to leave a lot of our core values, cultural values, behind. Just to be able to be part of the acculturation process, you know, and being able to adapt to a new society, a new culture. A lot of immigrants, you know, for example, if you’re an immigrant from Latin America and perhaps you’re undocumented, you are going through the process of being, you know, displaced from your country because of violence or a political instability. And then you have a journey that could take, you know, weeks, up to months, to really come to this country, you know. And then in the process of coming to this country is also adapting here, you know, and not being able to have documentation come with a right of issues. Now, not only that, we all also have immigrants. Are very young when they come here, so they are in the first years of life, and then they left their country. They’re here, but they’re not necessarily here. So when they’re growing up and going to school, you know, they figure it out like, Oh, I’m different. I have a different status. I have a different, you know, position in my society, my group of of people, of peers, you know, and that process is really hard, you know, another immigrant could be maybe coming from Africa, you know, they have to go to refugee camps for years, almost decades, sometimes. And so is leaving the country, going to a new country, being in the refugee camp and waiting for their opportunity to come here. So I think it’s important to look at the different experiences, you know, and not necessarily say, Okay, you come from this region of the world. Your experience might be like this. I think it’s very unique for each one of us.

 

Kim Howard  06:43

Yeah, and we’ve talked about this on podcast before, and we’ve written, authors have written about it in a magazine, about how everybody’s experience is pretty much almost unique. You know, there are some similarities with a lot of things, but for the most part, what people that you encounter their life and their story is unique. And so we have to treat people that way, in terms of not trying to lump them all together. Oh, you came from Africa, immigrated from Africa, then your experience was this. And if you immigrated from Latin America or South America, your experience was this. Well, there’s a lot of different countries on those continents, you know. And so everybody’s experience is different, and you’re right based on what age you come to this country and how quickly you can, can or cannot assimilate, and the things that you leave behind, the family you leave behind, the comfort you leave behind, learning a new language is extremely difficult. I mean, I, as an English, native English speaker cannot imagine going to another country where they don’t speak English and trying to learn to navigate, not just on vacation. That’s one kind of stressor, but learn to navigate your whole life in a completely different country. So, and you’re right, the refugee camps, I mean, I’m sure that’s not a pleasant experience at all, and very stressful. And so people are coming to this country with with different kinds of issues and trauma and and positive feelings, but also some sadness that goes along with leaving family behind or cultural things that they really loved. And so I’m glad that people like you are out there helping people who come to this country looking for a better life to help them, help them manage so thank you. You know, what successes have you seen using EMDR therapy for this population?

 

Roberto Lara  08:27

I think it’s effective. I think it’s it’s really effective if we, as I say previously, if we’re creative, I think there’s a lot of we have to incorporate what, you know, the learned system of knowledge, behaviors, attitudes, you know, that encompass, you know, like values and norms that sure for that person. And I think adapted to that. It works really well. If we stay writing a protocol, they may say in the standard protocol, but we’re not incorporating some of those cultural pieces to it. I think it’s not, it’s not as effective. And I hear from our Latino for example, or Latino therapist or therapist I work with immigrants that they found those, those kind of like road blocks. And I think it’s becoming creative and cooperating things is essential to make it effective. Absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  09:15

Are there any myths that you would like to bust about working with EMDR therapy and immigrants?

 

Roberto Lara  09:20

Yes, I think is what I said just previously, is like that it’s not effective with this population, that we’re gonna work. I remember working in a community agency a few years back, and a lot of the service where EMDR trained, but what I hear is, like, it’s not working. Doesn’t work for them. And I think coming in from the cognitive lens, perhaps not. And now we have to consider, you know, all these cultural aspects of of the client, I think, seeing the client as a unique individual, and then see what is important for the client, you know. I think, for example, collectivism is something that we don’t really necessarily consider, you know, and collectivism comparing to an individualist. Stick society that we are here in this country. I think it’s important to say who are the values as a group that are causing, you know, if we work through cognitive stuff, how that relates to that group, right? How they can really, we can focus and influence their healing through that lenses and not being the I don’t know if you use conditions I am or I am shameful is, well, we are maybe, you know, and incorporating that into, I think, is really effective. So I think the myth is we’re not all the same. Consider that, because if we think that we’re all the same, we’re experiencing the same. We don’t want to be as effective.

 

Kim Howard  10:42

Excellent. Excellent advice. Thank you. Roberto, what would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR therapy with this population?

 

Roberto Lara  10:50

EMDR is effective if we are mindful of the complicity of the human being that we’re working you know I, for example, I have a client that he came to a stage when she was three years old, and she grew up here, and she didn’t know her status. She wasn’t documented, and then she was going to school, and she was having a wonderful life, and then suddenly, in high school, she needed to get her permit to drive. And then she realized that she didn’t have documents, right? And then now, fast forward for her. She married a USA citizen, and she’s getting her citizenship soon, but she feels shameful for it. She needs shameful that she’s getting that why? Because her, the rest of her family does not have that status. So she’s she can allow herself to really feel what she could feel, knowing that she can be documented now and she’s not going to be a second class citizen, you know. So now she feels that she betrays her family by really embracing those feelings, those emotions and those beliefs around that. So I think it’s important to really understand the complexity of immigrants, especially now with a political climate, I think immigration has become a really serious topic, you know, and it’s influencing a lot of people even in their daily life, you know, I would say I don’t know, work with teams, for example, that they will have, they will experience a lot of anxiety because they have their parents going to work and not knowing if they want to see them in the day? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  12:29

That’s really stressful. That’s not a healthy way to live, that is for sure. How do you practice cultural humility?

 

Roberto Lara  12:38

As an EMDR therapist, I approach a reply with curiosity. I really try my best to know make assumptions, and I ask questions. I always ask questions, importantly, one on, or the fact that every human being is an expert of their own life. And I just come along for their journey, you know, I really, really believe that I try to really level the grounds, you know, and the power differential, I think with what I experienced, especially with immigrants, where experience is that they feel that, because we’re the professionals, we’re in a different level. And I think bringing it up to that, how I do that, I’m very intentional with self disclosure. I share some of my experiences with them to make they feel more at ease, to may feel more that they’re with an or human being and not necessarily somebody that’s tried to fix them or change them, and it’s more about an or human being just holding their experience. I think that’s extremely important.

 

Kim Howard  13:33

Yeah. Now that’s good advice, and I feel like there are many of us out there who who look upon people in a professional capacity, maybe in the medical community or in the therapy community, or anybody in a power position as the expert, and we’re just the regular person, and we want to defer to all their knowledge. And so it’s, it’s when you say that you level that playing field by disclosing a little bit more about who you are that’s very helpful, I would think, to your clients, so that not that they’ve put you on a pedestal, but if they have put you on a pedestal, the pedestal is a little bit shorter now, and you guys are a little more even in terms of who you are and how you’re approaching the relationship. And I, I think that really matters to anybody who’s coming in for any kind of service from a professional that you remember that they’re, they’re human beings, like like you are, and they have, they make mistakes, and they have a story, and they’re just here to help you. And so that’s good that you’re, you’re doing that with your clients. That’s, that’s really great advice for the therapists who listen to thank you. Yeah,

 

Roberto Lara  14:36

I would say, I always use a phrase to say, we’re a work work in progress. And I think I am as a human being, you know, I’m evolving. I’m changing, I’m improving. There are some areas of that I need to work more on, but I really, are really mindful and intentional to communicate that to my clients. Because, yeah, I’m a work in progress too, as they are, you know, and that take a lot of the shame away. Are, you know, working? I think, yeah, another piece with cultural communities is also understand, especially with an immigrant, you know, community is that there are some there’s some shame around mental health, you know, there’s some stigma about mental health, and a lot of people don’t realize that. I mean, for an immigrant to sit down and talk to an argument about their emotions, their fears, you know, and their beliefs. It’s extremely hard, you know, and it’s something that we need to consider.

 

Kim Howard  15:29

Yeah, there is. It’s like you almost read my mind, because that was not a question that we talked about, so it was going to be an on the fly question, but that was one of my questions, was, how do you approach that with people who are leery about coming to a mental health professional, or it’s not culturally acceptable just to discuss mental health and be open about that. I mean, it’s, I feel like mental health is probably one of the last stigmas in society. We’re getting better about being aware about it, but in certain cultures, it’s still very closed, closed off and closed mouth, right? I don’t have any problems. I’m not going to talk to anybody about it. Or maybe they talk to their friends or their family, or if they’re religious, they might talk to their priest or their pastor, but they wouldn’t consider talking to a mental health professional. And so I’m glad that you mentioned that, because I feel like that’s still an issue in many, many societies, and so we’re trying to help. EMDR is trying to make sure people understand that there’s really nothing wrong with barking on your mental health, whether you have extreme, deep trauma or whether you have little T trauma. You know, if you have health issues, you take care of them just like you would if you had physical health issues, and you go to the doctor. You go to the doctor. And so that’s good that we’re being open, more open about it. So thank you.

 

Roberto Lara  16:47

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s also, again, it’s a work in progress. We even with my clients, or, for example, with psychotropic medications, right? I say, hey, like, if you have diabetes, will you take insulin? Everything, right? And I say, Well, absolutely. So what about mental health? If you need a medication? Right now, we were willing to go to a doctor, and this is always a continuous battle with that, and people not it’s a stigma, you know? I’m feeling that, oh, I’m crazy, right? You know, resolve, or whatever they believe.

 

Kim Howard  17:19

Yeah, I think we as a society, we don’t blame ourselves for getting cancer or getting diabetes or Alzheimer’s, but we will blame ourselves for our mental health, which I don’t really understand, why we as humans do that. I mean, you don’t, you don’t purposely make yourself unhappy. You don’t purposely make yourself traumatized. I mean, it happens, and brain chemistry changes, and things happen and you don’t, you have no control over that absolutely, you know, can you prevent skin cancer by using sun block? Sure, but that doesn’t mean that if you still use sun block, you may not get, you could still get skin cancer. And so yeah, we know there’s nothing wrong with you, who you are and how you are. You just, if you know there’s a problem, you got to get some help for it.

 

Roberto Lara  18:02

So, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

 

Kim Howard  18:04

Roberta, do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource that you would suggest, either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

 

Roberto Lara  18:13

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I appreciate your podcast, obviously. And I also noticed that the podcast and the website, I really appreciate the website has robust information on topics related to EMDR. Really access to it. I appreciate also the goal with that magazine, especially the last the last spring, you know, issue that integrates EMDR with our type of therapist. I think that’s been a lot of the topics that come up on my consultations, and I’m glad that that I really recommend to to therapists out there to really get their hands on this issue, because it’s great. I really, I really enjoy it all through it.

 

Kim Howard  18:51

Yeah, I think that happens not a lot. I don’t know what the percentage is, but let’s say a quarter, and I’m making this up, so let’s say a quarter of the people who get trained in EMDR therapy don’t quite understand yet how to integrate it into their practice. And that’s we have some information on the website about how to add that to your practice and how to integrate it. And so people don’t they’re like, Okay, great, I’m trained. And then they’re like, well, now what do I do with it? And so it’s helpful that we produce material like the latest issue of go with that magazine and other content pieces that we create. So people, EMDR therapists know that you can take this and you can use it with ifs and you can use it with other modalities. And so that’s really important for them to understand that they can weave those together. No pun intended in our weaves. But yeah, that’s good. Thank you. Thank you. Roberta, if you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be?

 

Roberto Lara  19:43

That’s a good question. I was thinking about that. I think I will be a hunting and fish and fly fishing guy. I love I just love working with people, interacting with all human beings, and I really love nature as a healing way. And I think, well, before a therapist, I’ll be. Four I was, I moved to this country, an immigrated here. You know, almost 20 years ago, I was a guy in the Amazon, and that’s how I learned that I really wanted to work with people. I take it to a different level. So I became a psychotherapist, but honestly, working with people in nature, it’s been always a great thing.

 

Kim Howard  20:18

You could pair that. I mean, there are programs out there who take people out into nature and do things like camping and fly fishing and fishing and those kinds of things you could, you could create a whole program around that, building the therapy aspect, a group therapy aspect into that, and have groups go out. And you could marry those two expertises, and go make it so. Roberto, we decided what your future is going to be. Now professionally, just go make it happen. But, I mean, you live, you could you live in a state where there’s, I mean, I think most of our states, actually, all of our states, have some kind of natural component, where you have rivers and lakes and streams and fishing and camping, and you can do those things. And so you could marry those two aspirations. Is there anything else you’d like to add?

 

Roberto Lara  21:09

We’re in a country that prides itself of being a nation of immigrants, although there’s a significant anti immigrant trend that has a major impact of a well being of both like documented and undocumented immigrants in the United States. I think most of the therapists, or most of my colleagues, can easily agree that the more skilled clinician is to identify the client’s internal and external resources, the more likely it is that they’re going to build a stronger empirical alliance with any client you know. So I think that is important because the authority, role and status of a new provider in society, it place people in disadvantage if we don’t really understand their internal and external resources and understanding their experience. So I think it’s more important than than ever right now, how things are going. You know, in our society, I think it’s important to count that as part of you know what we need to do.

 

Kim Howard  22:06

Yeah, absolutely. That’s a good way to end the podcast. Thank you, Roberto.

 

Roberto Lara  22:10

Thank you Kim for having me today.

 

Kim Howard  22:12

This has been the Let’s Talk EMDR Podcast with our guest, Roberto Lara. Visit www.emdria.org for more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our find an EMDR therapist directory with more than 16,000 therapists available. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this free podcast wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.