Kim Howard  00:05

Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association or EMDRIA. I’m your host Kim Howard. In this episode we are talking with EMDR certified therapist and consultant, Marlene Kenny, about EMDR therapy and suicide postvention. Let’s get started. Today we’re speaking with EMDR certified therapist and consultant Marlene Kenny to talk about EMDR therapy and suicide risk. Thank you, Marlene for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

 

Marlene Kenney  00:33

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

 

Kim Howard  00:36

Marlene, can you tell us a little bit about your path to becoming an EMDR therapist?

 

Marlene Kenney  00:40

Well, my path to becoming a trauma therapist really started with my work getting a master’s in anthropology and doing field research on my mother’s reservation in Montana, the Blackfeet Reservation where I was really stunned to understand the impact of the reservation boarding schools on people’s actual lives. And from there, I moved out of out of the world of of research and participant observation to becoming a licensed clinical social worker and working in community mental health, or a really cool trauma therapy designed program to work with families, mostly moms, but parents who screened in in early intervention on risk. And the moment that I decided to, to get more training, and to try to work on developing an approach that was more collaborative and transparent. And effective, was exactly when I was working in a shelter for teen mothers who were in the care of the Department of Children and Families, doing groups with them that just felt ineffective. It felt like I was defaulting to my own kind of loving eyes and kind of group skill attitude. My organization didn’t approve of EMDR. And so I quit. And got trained in EMDR therapy, and just started really delivering in lots of different contexts, critical incident support, which is the suicide prevention and postvention work, long term EMDR complex trauma, and EMDR Early Intervention, it sort of went from from like zero to 80, in the first 18 months really up being being trained in EMDR.

 

Kim Howard  02:50

That’s a great origin story. And it’s very unique. I think you’re the first guest we’ve had on the podcast who has an anthropology degree, undergrad or post grad. You’re not the first Native American Indian that we’ve interviewed. But well, that’s not true. I think you are. And if anyone’s disclosed, I think you are we have interviewed Shelley Spear Chief, but she’s Canadian. So yeah, technically you are, I think the first Native American Indian, so fantastic. We love that.

 

Marlene Kenney  03:18

My mom is a tribal member. And my affiliation, just to be super clear, is I’m considered a first descendant because of of the way the tribe organizes kind of rights to property and health care and just and just belonging. However, my sense of belonging and responsibility is very much grounded. And in that origin story, and the idea that what we do always has to be sustainable for the people that we work with. So it impacts so much of how I think and what and what I do kind of all of these identities that that shaped my drive into this work and kind of keep me alive every day.

 

Kim Howard  04:05

Yeah, that’s fantastic. Thank you. What’s your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy?

 

Marlene Kenney  04:11

Yeah, I think that the first of all, adaptive information processing really speaks to the collaborative, transparent, healing nature of what we do no matter which type of EMDR therapy that we’re doing. So I love working in a context where I’m not doing something to somebody that I’m doing some something with somebody always whether it’s a group, or an individual, and it makes me feel like I’m able to invite healing, and not inflict healing or more wounding. So I really think that’s how I that’s how I think about it. And honestly, I love doing groups. And the fact that we actually do transform people’s natural healing is so powerful to me. So I mean, there are a lot of favorite parts for sure. But I like that I’m create lasting change that is really coming from within the person, that or group that we’re working with.

 

Kim Howard  05:24

Yeah, that’s wonderful. Thank you. What successes have you seen using EMDR therapy for suicide risk?

 

Marlene Kenney  05:31

Well, one of the areas that I am specialized in comes from years of working in what’s called suicide postvention. So the moments in time, right after there’s been a suicide, loss, a death by suicide. And that happens to be a time when loved ones, people highly exposed, or folks that are, might be more vulnerable, because of their own history, their own trauma, their own suicide risk, or their own empathy, for an imagination around what’s happened to their loved one, that’s when they’re kind of risk really does spike actually in the first in the first four months. And so, I love that I feel equipped to use EMDR, to sit with people in that excruciating first four months, and help reduce their risk from jump. Right, just just by saying, we are going to work with some of the worst parts that are are held. And I am really confident that this is going to support you now, and help you grieve. And I know that this is going to reduce your risk in the future. So that piece has allowed me knowing what to do, I think of it as sort of like when I work with first responders, they say, it’s weird that this thing is bothering me I have the training, I should be able to go forward and that is protective. So I see EMDR as protecting me, because I know what to do. And I know how to how to support. But it also decreases the risk that a death by suicide introduces into someone’s life.

 

Kim Howard  07:29

I’m glad you mentioned that my son lost a good friend in junior high school to suicide. And that came as a complete shock for our family. And I had just met this child the week before, had no indication that he had any kind of thoughts like that, or he was happy. He shook my hand he looked me in the eye, which is unusual for a 14 year old boy, you know. And so when we got the call, I was at work. And a friend of mine who was a stay at home mom immediately whisked, you know, she went to school and school was closed because it was the voting day. And she immediately whisked our sons, they were friends to the school for counseling. The school brings all the counselors in when something tragic like that happens. And so we were lucky that we were able to get him some immediate help. But it it impacted our family in a way that we didn’t think it would, you know, I mean, you don’t you don’t know until it happens to someone that you know and love. After that we celebrated his life by doing the… Yes, Out of the Darkness Walk, thank you. And so we did that for several years and raise money for that cause. And as we would go, I would see people at those walks, who were in our community who went to our church and had been touched somehow, by either an attempted suicide or a suicide of someone that they knew and loved and family member, friend, whoever. And I thought, holy cow, this is more widespread than you think it is, I guess because it’s not, I don’t know, it’s not maybe maybe it’s not talked about or it’s just not known in general. I mean, these were not people that I was friends with. These were people that I had seen in the community I knew of but didn’t really know well. So it’s good that Out of the Darkness Walks happen so that people can come together and honor their loved ones. So thank you for that work. It’s very crucial. All trauma therapy is crucial, but that I don’t know. That’s a little extra crucial.

 

Marlene Kenney  08:37

It is and and the other thing that I feel is really important in what you’re saying is just a couple of things. One, that there are things people can do immediately and EMDR early intervention is often not one of those things that school counselors or people on the scene do immediately they they do sometimes psychological first aid if they’re trained, or they just use their their you know their their skill, but all often those kids, those teachers, those community members have continued intrusive thoughts and, and sometimes their own suicidal ideation. And that’s where EMDR therapists come in, right to be able to have the training to not have what I like to call the universal “Oh, s-h-i-t” moment where and you can edit that out if you know that there’s no selling swear words on this on this podcast. But that moment where you’re just like, What am I dealing with EMDR therapists know what to do with that. And often, that’s the first point of contact, for getting psychotherapy, that can be life saving. And we know that loss survivors from that concentric circle of like your son and his friend, to the community members to the family, lost survivors are often dealing with a loss and the harder parts of the loss for seven years. But the research shows and it is sometimes at the root of psychopathology, especially depression. And so that’s, that’s the second piece EMDR therapy, some of the success that I’ve seen, is really talking to people about when their risk started. Right in the language that we have in EMDR. And the framework that we use, it can really deescalate the scariness of that of that of that idea. You know, when somebody’s sort of like, Huh, well, it started when somebody I know had an attempt, or I felt really hopeless, or I didn’t belong, because I moved. Okay, let’s, let’s go with that. Let’s set that up and start to work with that. So it’s a very integrative approach that I use with what we know about public health and the suicide and suicide postvention. And what EMDR therapy or EMDR therapy does, so I really advocate success based on a more integrative and informed approach.

 

Kim Howard  12:15

Marlene, are there any myths that you would like to bust about working with someone who is at risk of suicide?

 

Marlene Kenney  12:21

I don’t know if it’s my favorite myth, because a myth is, you know, sometimes destructive. But one of the things that I noticed, in responding to communities and teaching them about suicide prevention and postvention is that a lot of people feel like if you talk about it, you’re going to introduce the idea in somebody’s head. And that is absolutely not true. If you talk to somebody who has suicidal ideation, or more escalated around thinking about having a plan or really dysregulated. And they’ve, there’s their psychological, they’re in that sort of tunnel vision mode, people are relieved. And EMDR therapists can ask those questions in history taking, have you ever thought about it, it’s not going to introduce the idea. In fact, it’s going to give us more to work with and more safety and transparency. In therapy, we want to make sure that people feel safe, and disclosing when they are feeling like that’s the only option. Of course we use a safety plan. But as EMDR therapists we might talk about, you know, what can you do to support your nervous system? What are the resources that, you know, we can install and work with? There’s just so much we can do once we ask the question, but the myth around it often gets in the way of people really talking about it.

 

Kim Howard  13:52

Thank you for putting that myth to bed. Absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  13:56

Are there any specific complexities or difficulties working with this community?

 

Marlene Kenney  14:01

So many, actually, and I think the one thing that comes to mind, Kim is I’m actually sitting on the couch in my office, and I’m reminded of a loss survivor I work with whose brother died by suicide. And in in this particular case, the client, which is often the case and a lot of trauma, folks with traumatic experience, was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. And so she sort of operated and all of the people before me who treated her operated with this idea that because of her bipolar disorder, her suicide risk was super high, because she is so dysregulated and so extreme with her emotion, so she was going through a transition in her own personal life and something that was potentially traumatizing to her and her suicide risk escalated here on this couch to the point that we got the safety plan out, you know, I brought I brought her partner in to sort of talk, talk about our next steps and our next plan. And I think a lot of clinicians probably would have hospitalized that client. And I think that is a choice point and a challenge and working with this population, sort of like their safety, our safety, our community safety is always sort of on kind of on the line, in some ways, especially when, when there’s a spike in risk. But the research really shows that it is better for folks, for us to use a safety plan to work on emotional regulation, increased number of days of therapy and contact before we end up hospitalizing people, just because that reinforces a kind of stigma, and a lot of times they don’t get, especially people with trauma histories don’t get the care that they really need. And this young woman’s case, for her, bringing her partner in talking about where we’re at what would help, what wouldn’t help strategizing around your safety plan around it, you know, that that? These are things we ask in preparation in EMDR therapy? What do you do when, when it’s too much? How do you take care of yourself? What skills here can you transfer? She reported that two days later, when I saw her again, in the office, that that was a pivotal moment for her that she didn’t feel sick or broken, she felt a little bit more capable of managing those strong emotions, which were really, really scary. Yeah, so that is just a piece of the complexity that we always have to name in working with this population. And a lot of times why EMDR therapists coming out of basic training, leave their weekend one thinking, I was told not to do EMDR therapy with people with suicidal ideation. And somehow that’s a myth that kind of has seeped into, into the EMDR world. It it could not be further from the truth. One of the risk factors for death by suicide, right, that increases rates of suicide is either a traumatic event, loss by death by suicide to somebody in your in your family, or a trauma history, increased ACE scores increase the risks. So what do we do in EMDR therapy, we do that that’s our work. That’s what we do. So it just could not be further from the truth or what’s effective. But we do have to pay attention to always cultivating safety and sometimes pulling back and moving forward in terms of targeting and reprocessing. By the time somebody gets there, I always think about, am I flooding them what’s going on with their capacity to regulate and to not attach to these traumatic memories, but if they’re already in, you know, phase four, they’re pretty much have what they need in order to maintain that dual focus of awareness and, stay and stay safe.

 

Kim Howard  18:31

Thank you. That’s a good answer. How do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR therapist?

 

Marlene Kenney  18:36

I love this question. Because my first answer is like, Well, hey, Kim. All I do

 

Kim Howard  18:44

I just told you, I was so I don’t know why you’re asking me this question.

 

Marlene Kenney  18:50

But, and one of the things that I do especially related to traumatic grief, that’s, that is part of cultural humility, and suicide postvention is I talk to people about, first of all, the meaning of suicide in their cultural framework, which might be their religious ideas. It might be their country or community of origin. I need to understand that right? I’m going in there saying, Oh, we can talk about this. It feels better when you talk about this. If you can name it, you can tame it, but somebody else might be sitting there thinking this is the first time anybody like why are you being so why are you being so like casual about this? This is this this could be damning. So I want to understand that. And I also want to kind of, I sort of think about it as like, let me tell you how I work with this, like where I’m coming from. So that’s one thing and then traumatic grief wise, I always really just need to know how people what their rituals are? What makes sense to them? How’s it talked about in, you know, what can they avail themselves of in terms of comfort and safety and support? One of the things we know helps in, in suicide postvention, believe it or not, is there’s an old study out that says working with faith leader, a psychic, or a therapist in that order. Who is your faith leader? Right? Have a faith leader, what does that mean to you? Am I gonna offer a psychic to somebody who is going to shut down and think that I’m coming from a place that they can’t relate to? That’s really sort of how I frame cultural humility in this in this part of the work. And so really, from a suicide prevention point of view, when I think about cultural humility, and I’m in community, whether it’s doing a training or response, whoever I’m working with, I always try to provide resources, suicide prevention resources that are in the language and the culture of the folks that I’m working with. So for example, last week, I was doing two day training in Chicago with Ukrainian and folks who are recently in the U.S. who are helping other Ukrainians come and resettle in Chicago. So I happen to know that there’s a suicide prevention hotline in Ukraine, that is relatively new, but getting a lot of traction. So we want to provide resources that, that they can use in their own language, but also that they can offer to other people. And to me, that’s, that’s cultural humility, that’s really meeting people where they are, so that they can kind of work me out of a job by connecting to the healing that’s already in their own community.

 

Kim Howard  22:03

So good answer, thank you. Do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource would suggest either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

 

Marlene Kenney  22:12

I love free things. So the two things that came to mind, I had to sort of sort through my memory banks with that with that question, as I was thinking about the two things that come to mind are I always use, Elan Shapiro and Brurit Laub’s Four Elements, I use that a lot of the work that I do, and that is available, I have an attachment that I can send you that you can connect here. And surprisingly, one thing that I recommend, whether I’m doing community work trainings, kind of across the board, I recommend that folks use bilateral or binaural sound, as as part of a strategy for especially sleep, which is I find that general public and EMDR therapists, that’s the most common physical reaction to anything that happens, and also just the load and burden of our work. And so there’s, there’s a lot of bilateral and binaural sounds available on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Music, and some of them are more tailored for different things that you’re trying to affect. I often recommend a YouTube sound by David Grand, sort of anybody who works with me knows that that’s where I start, because the musicians and sound engineers in my life say it’s not too annoying.

 

Kim Howard  23:44

Good, we definitely don’t want to be annoying if we’re trying to calm ourselves down, right? I don’t want that to be annoying.

 

Marlene Kenney  23:49

You don’t want to be distracted by why are they playing that, that chanting sound in the background as it’s going back and forth? Yeah.

 

Kim Howard  23:58

It’s funny that you mentioned that I’ve been practicing yoga since 2010. And I’ve had several yoga teachers say that the hardest part of yoga for many people often is shavasana, which is at the very end when you’re late usually laying prone on your mat and it’s at the end of class and it’s a five minute meditation, maybe 10 depend on how long the class is because they always tell you now it’s not the time to talk about your think about your To Do Lists when you leave the gym, you know, or you leave classes is not about that. This is about focusing on what’s going on with you internally and certain things you do pick up you know, when you’re quiet like that you pick up on certain things that you like or don’t like, you know, like some people love the sound of crickets and that they want that to be their white noise in their machine. And I personally don’t care for that. So you have to kind of find what works for you. But there are some options out there. So we will definitely link those in the podcast description so people can go check them out. Thanks for suggesting those. What would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR therapy and suicide risk?

 

Marlene Kenney  24:57

First of all, that EMDR therapy isn’t going to damage anyone. And that there are approaches with EMDR therapy that like the Recent Traumatic Episode Protocol (RTEP), or any of the early intervention approaches that really limit the focus of EMDR therapy to what happened. So you can you can get support and treatment for an escalation and risk or exposure, and not have to do that old old work until you’re ready. So I’d like people to know that, that we can work in an incremental way that is collaborative and supportive of wherever the person who’s experiencing suicidal ideation or an increase in risk is, and that we can include their loved ones we can, we can do groups we can do lots of, it’s just a matter of getting into the door, and your EMDR therapist, and can find a way to support you.

 

Kim Howard  26:05

Yeah, we have said this on the podcast before. And I will say it again, for anybody who’s new and listening, if you go to therapy, you are brave. We had a podcast guest Marshall Lyles, say that about a year ago, when I interviewed him about EMDR therapy, and I think it was expressive arts don’t quote me on the title directly, I have to go back and double check. And he said that it’s a privilege and an honor when people come into his office or into his Zoom Room, and go to therapy with him and how brave people are. And I never thought about it that way, you know, because it does take a lot for somebody to step out and say, Hey, I’ve got some issues, I need some help. Because I can’t, I can’t solve them myself. So anybody out there listening, thank you for going to therapy, anybody who’s thinking about going to therapy, you’re brave.

 

Marlene Kenney  26:52

One of one of the things that I find, especially in this in this connection between suicidal ideation and risk factors, and just EMDR therapy in general, is now there’s a lot of information out there that prospective clients can reach into. So sometimes they walk in thinking that we’re going to do EMDR therapy to them. And it’s going to go at a pace that they’re not ready for that they might discover something that’s hidden or that they didn’t know about or that they can’t deal with. And so one of the one of the phrases, phrases that I often use when I meet people for the first time, I just say, I want you to think these two words, grace, and pace. And I give you this space together with me, this is what you need. And my job is is to make sure that we’re going along at a at a pace that feels safe and right for you. Just because I can go there doesn’t mean it’s right for you, or, frankly right for me, because I don’t want to flood you. So I think that that’s a I think that’s a really important piece of doing EMDR therapy in general, is to help people understand from the beginning, that we do this with you, not to you.

 

Kim Howard  28:10

Yeah, that’s great. I like that. I like that saying thank you. If you weren’t any of your therapists would you be?

 

Marlene Kenney  28:17

I often am thinking about a plan B.

 

Kim Howard  28:23

One day when I retire and I own my own island, I’m going to open a B&B.

 

Marlene Kenney  28:29

It’s one of my self care, sort of safety valves is I’m just like, well, I don’t have to do this I could do. And so I could do or would want to do. First of all, the only other type of therapy that I would ever do is forest bathing. I would not be a psychotherapist, if I wasn’t doing EMDR I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be in practice now, if I wasn’t doing EMDR therapy. And then I think a lot about and my one of my core values is sustainability. And, and all that I do and and how I live. And so really aligning that core value to what else I would do. I would be a beekeeper. I love bees and I’m a bee advocate. And I think about bees and I sort of study bees. Think about like the cross-cultural ways that we that people keep bees and are in love with bees, and they’re just so so important to being able to live on this planet. So I think I would probably be be a beekeeper. One fun fact about me is I always wear a bee necklace. Since the war started in Ukraine, as one of our family members who was Ukrainian, was a beekeeper and had to flee the country and because of my Plan B beekeeping bee thing. My first thought unusually is what’s going to happen to the bees, there’s and my, my person had to leave his bees and the bees and the bees will be okay, they’ll figure out how to take care of themselves. But it’s such an attachment, you know, just the impact of how we live on those tiny, really impressive little social creatures that, that sustain everything that that helps us breathe and live.

 

Kim Howard  30:32

Well you could actually do the beekeeping thing if you live in an area that would allow you to have that. So you wouldn’t have to give up your EMDR therapy practice if you wanted to be, you could be a beekeeper, now, if you wanted to.

 

Marlene Kenney  30:46

I thought about volunteering with a beekeeper. Oh, yeah. Because again, since this sustainability is my jam, like, I never invite bees into my life unless I was sure I was going to be a good steward of bees. And so I have thought, you know, I’ll be a volunteer apprentice to a beekeeper.

 

Kim Howard  31:09

Good idea. Then you can decide if it’s something that you really could do and want to do. Because I think sometimes we have delusions of grandeur about about things. And then you get into the reality. You’re like, nobody told me about this part, you know?

 

Marlene Kenney  31:10

Yeah, Exactly.

 

Kim Howard  31:24

I didn’t know, you know?

 

Marlene Kenney  31:25

Exactly, exactly. The other thing that I would do. I’m a skier and I love being outside, I would think about being an adaptive ski instructor. But by the time, you know, again, that’s, that takes a lot of a lot of skill and a lot of training. But it’s something that I that I think a lot about just sort of how to bring joy and balance into the lives, the lives of other people. That’s what I would continue to do. If I wasn’t an EMDR therapist.

 

Kim Howard  31:56

Well, those are really cool and very unique. So thank you, there’s no wrong answer to that question. We’d like to ask it because we think it’s fun. And we have gotten some interesting answers over the history of the podcast. So thank you for giving us a new idea and something unique, we appreciate that. Is there anything else you’d like to add?

 

Marlene Kenney  32:15

If I use this as a, as a place to deliver a message to my colleagues and people listening about EMDR or learning about EMDR, I think that in this practice, it has to be a practice, it has to be rigorous, we have to take care of our own nervous systems. Because our nervous system is part of the process. So if you have raggedy nervous system friends, it’s going to be hard to be available for somebody else’s nervous system that is that is in the room. So think about how you’re caring for your own nervous system as you care for the nervous system of others. And that’s rigorous training and consultation, reading and also, how are you resting? Make sure that you’re inviting some rest into your into your pocket every single minute of the day.

 

Kim Howard  33:10

That’s a good answer. It’s good way to end podcast. Thank you.

 

Marlene Kenney  33:12

You’re welcome.

 

Kim Howard  33:14

This has been the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast with our guests, Marlene Kenny, Visit www.emdria.org for more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our fine and EMDR therapist with more than 15,000 therapists available. Like what you hear, make sure you subscribe to this free podcast wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.