Kim Howard  00:06

Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association, or EMDRIA. I am your host, Kim Howard. In this episode, we are talking with EMDR certified therapist and consultant, Liliana Baylon about EMDR therapy for global migration. Let’s get started. Today, we are speaking with EMDR certified therapist and consultant, Liliana Baylon, to discuss EMDR therapy and global migration. Thank you, Liliana, for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

 

Liliana Baylon  00:34

Oh, thank you for the invite.

 

Kim Howard  00:36

Liliana, can you tells us about your path to becoming an EMDR therapist?

 

Liliana Baylon  00:40

Actually, that was a really good question. I will start even trying to think about I graduated school in 2012 and automatically someone told me about EMDR. I was working in a non profit that provided home services, so I was trying to figure it out how to help the clients that I serve while I’m in home doing EMDR sessions. So that’s a really nice transition, because no one was doing that. But I finished my EMDR training in 2014 became certified in 2017 and then I became an approved consultant in 2021, and I think part of the time frame was I was trying to figure it out how to do first, EMDR sessions in home services, because you need to think about the space, the interruptions, who’s going to be a part of it will be things, and then to continue it. And how do I do it? Specifically with migrants, which is the population that I tend to focus on.

 

Kim Howard  01:41

Right? Because, I mean, normally, if somebody comes to your office or they’re in a Zoom Room, it’s generally pretty quiet, pretty private. But yeah, if you’re going into somebody’s home, you have no idea what kind of distractions are happening and trying to get through the session in a productive way, you know, a lot more difficult, I would think so. Yeah, it’s a lot. It’s a lot to buy it off, but glad you finally figured it out for us. Can you tell us about your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy?

 

Liliana Baylon  02:09

I think everyone has the same answer, or I think I’m telling myself that, but it’s witnessing the shift that happens in clients when they’re able to have organized thoughts of, what is it that I went through process with you in therapy? This is what I felt. This is what I went through. This is the intensity of it, and then seeing the release of the intensity that they were holding on for so long, but also the ability, something that I love about EMDR, is that and not other therapists can can say that, but is the ability to integrate expressive art. So a lot of times with my clients, I’m trying to bring in the EMDR and then compliment it with either sensory or play therapy, which is less threatening when you are afraid to be with the population that I work with being disloyal. So using a lot of words can be hard for them, so play therapy center in conjunction with EMDR, is just beautiful. So that’s my favorite part.

 

Kim Howard  03:09

I was talking to Lauren rich, and she talked about how in certain cultures, they’re not very verbose, you know, they just don’t use a lot of words. And so you try to get somebody into the therapy room, and it’s very strange to them to have to, you know, be so talkative. And so it’s good that you found a solution with arts therapy that helps people express their feelings without having to use words.

 

Liliana Baylon  03:34

Yes, right? And I agree with her, because these cultures have the idea of, that’s too many words. How am I attuning to what’s happening to me? And then the other part is, if I accept acknowledge these feelings, am I being disloyal to my family? Right? So this is huge, being able to to integrate those two.

 

Kim Howard  03:55

Yeah, good. Liliana, can you please briefly talk about the difference between a migrant and an immigrant?

 

Liliana Baylon  04:01

Thank you for asking, because not everyone knows, and actually they think that it’s the same. So here it is an opportunity to clarify it. So a migrant is just a person that moves from one place to another. So a lot of us, because of work within the United States, we tend to move from state to state. So you’re considered a migraine; a transplant. That’s usually the word that we use here, but an immigrant is someone who moves from one country to another. So we used to see this due to a global economy, so because of professions, because of education. So you’re an immigrant, and you tend to move from one country into another one. It was just that it was not with the intent to settle in the U.S. Fundamentally, we use the word immigrant in order to say foreign. So in this case, Latinos moving from Latin America to the U.S. The word that we’re using now, though, to talk about them is to say forced migration in order to clarify why they’re moving. It’s not because of a profession or it’s not because of education, but because. They had to move things beyond their control. So they may be the cartel natural disasters ward. We saw that with Ukraine. So there’s a lot of things that impact their lives. So therefore they were migrating to other countries, and then because of that, and specifically here in the U.S., we were having a hard time between immigrants and forced migration. Then we came up with a new term, so now we’re using newcomers. And newcomers was used as an umbrella to talk about anyone who was coming into the U.S. because of all the things that we just mentioned, but we’re using newcomers to remove this stigma of coming to the U.S. Got it.

 

Kim Howard  05:40

Thank you for clarifying that. And I think we’ve talked about this before on the podcast. I don’t remember which episode it was, but you know, for somebody to pick up and move their life, and not because they’re a digital nomad, and it’s, you know, because of their work, and they could just, you know, they have, they still have their one visa from their country of origin, and they can go back whenever they want, for somebody to pick up and move their life, because something is so horrific in their home country, and they’re like, We can’t stay here anymore, whether it’s a safety issue, whether it’s a economic issue, we gotta go that takes a lot of guts to do that, you know? And that’s super, super brave for somebody to do that. I mean, we only moved a few states away, and that was stressful enough. I cannot imagine trying to move us as a unit to another country where I don’t know the language, I don’t know the culture, I don’t know the landscape, and literally or figuratively, and make a new life for myself. So I’m glad you you separate those out. Thank you. What are the specific complexities or challenges of EMDR therapy for global migration?

 

Liliana Baylon  06:43

So I think here in the U.S., let’s start by naming it. That is not a global that is a global issue already. So it’s not that it’s just happening to the U.S. It’s happening everywhere we go. Because of that. The problem in the U.S. is that we work a lot with our brain, and we know thanks to inside out, let’s use that movie as an example that we store everything in core memories, and because of that, we tend to create stereotypes. So one of the complexities that we have, specifically in our field with global migration, is that we tend to read a lot of stereotypes when we’re working with this population. Thank God that we’re working with cultural humility, working with this population. Then the question goes to, what is it that I know? How do I know this? And what is it that I don’t know? And it’s not until we’re working with that population that usually the third question answer comes to a float, which is we don’t know a lot, because everything that we know was based on stereotypes. Something that is becoming obvious when we’re working with global migration is that we tend to put everything, thanks to the DSM book, in an umbrella saying, Oh, you have PTSD. But it’s more than that. That’s minimizing actually, when we’re working with this population, when in reality, we have different types of trauma. And there’s so much research out there that talks about pre migration, trauma, migration, trauma and post migration. But even when you were discussing early like in your experience moving from one state to another for migrants, right then they’re talking about what is the violence and persecution that they’re going through? What happens when you have to choose who do you bring with you and who you to leave behind? No one names the grief that they’re going through. What was the financial status like? Tell me about your poverty, extreme poverty, in most cases, or the abuse and torture that you have to go through. What is the chronic stress having to make that choice and then coming to another place where we don’t know how it works, and then it’s an additional chronic stress, because you’re in a survival mode all the time. And then, like the population that I work, I tend to work with a lot of kids, and I always have this little kid of one second grade, the school called me to work with him, and for him, his nervous system was not able to settle. Because for him, it was his dad decided to bring him left a younger sibling behind and mom behind. So just let it sink in right, like what happened to your body as soon as I said it so for this little one applying this his world was not safe. He felt guilty for not having his sibling and his mom, and then then he was going to school, different language, different setting, different expectations, separation of family. What he witnessed in that journey from coming from his country of origin here, it was just so much, and it was not understood. Then, the level acculturation, stress that he was dealing with the discrimination that he was dealing with because he was not adapting quickly, because he was not picking up the language, the uncertainty that he was because he came and he was living with a home that they took him in, but there was not like he didn’t have his own bed, so the inadequacy of the living conditions that he was going through. So again, the school reached out to me, so the mental health part was being taken care of, but there was a lot of family dynamics. So when we just when we don’t understand, from an EMDR perspective, how to work with a global migration, we tend to minimize everything that I just mentioned from an individual, and then just think, to think, I’m just going to work with PTSD. It’s not just that. It’s everything that I just mentioned.

 

Kim Howard  10:22

I can’t remember if I read this somewhere or somebody’s talk to me about it, but there are three or four things as a as a parent, that you’re supposed to provide right for your children, and one of them is shelter, food, emotional support, education, maybe. And I’m sure there’s another one out there, you know, but you think about all those things that you’re supposed to provide as a parent, and all the things that you just said, this parent wasn’t even getting that, much less the child, and it’s hard enough to explain to an adult: Yes, what happens when you migrate to another country. Here’s what you might encounter. We have a hard time processing that journey, much less a five or six or eight year old or 10 year old having how old this child is, but much less a child, you know, how do you deal with all of that? And so, yeah, I mean, I just think back to, you know, like when I was in school, and, you know, when my children were in school. I mean, children are I mean, I love my children, but children can be brutal human beings. They are mature, hopefully, and they have changed and grown and evolved, but they can be brutal to each other, you know. And just imagine going to a lunchroom and you’re some kid from another country, and your dad’s made you what a traditional food that you happen to love. And you sit down, and some kids got a bologna sandwich across from you, and some kids got peanut nut butter and jelly, maybe not peanut butter and jelly, because that’s, you know, like, not an allergy thing you think, but they’ve got food that looks more different than yours, and they’re, they’re gonna mock you because of it, because they don’t understand. They’ve never had that kind of food. Maybe they don’t share that kind of food in their home, and so they’re gonna make fun of your lunch. And how does, you know, how does that make that poor child feel? You know, this is really good food, and try it. You know, you might like it. Everybody has the same access to resources. The only differences are spices and the volume of you know, poultry versus cattle versus fish, you know, and you have to and the way things are cooked, and so you got to kind of step out of your comfort zone. But you’re not going to tell a kid that at the lunch table. They’re not going to be able to do that.

 

Liliana Baylon  12:16

So most of the times, those children are dealing with shame of their own identity. They add another stressor. Right process. They were trying to work with them in EMDR because now I’m questioning my identity, because I’m trying to assimilate to be like you, and you are rejecting me for not being like you and liking what you like exactly.

 

Kim Howard  12:36

Liliana, what successes have you seen using EMDR therapy for this population?

 

Liliana Baylon  12:40

It’s hard to answer because I was like, Oh my God, is EMDR? Is evidence based? It’s affective for trauma. I’m pretty sure that every guest have said this in the podcast. It’s cultural sensitive. We do work hard in EMDR to provide, not only ethics workshops, and we even have books that talks about how to be aware and how to make adaptations where we’re working with other cultures. And then again, going back to the language, you don’t need to speak their language to be able to help them, not with EMDR, especially if you’re using play therapy or expressive arts, you’re able to move through and just have the felt sense of what’s happening in the room without using a word. So to me, every client that I have applied EMDR have had the outcome that they wanted, because EMDR just works with every single one.

 

Kim Howard  13:32

Liliana, are there any myths that you would like to bust about working with EMDR therapy and global migrants?

 

Liliana Baylon  13:37

Yes. We just started with language. Language is a barrier. You don’t need to speak their language in order to do that, and they don’t have to speak yours. EMDR, is, you’re able to adapt EMDR, to the client that is in front of you. The other one is fear. Right? As therapists, we tend to project onto clients. So we tend to think it may be too intensive and overwhelming for the client, when, in reality, the overwhelming is by being by themselves. So as doing EMDR with them, we are coming and sitting with them and processing with them so they don’t have to deal with it on their own. I think the most recently one, especially after COVID, that I noticed, is the fear for the therapist of doing it wrong, the fear of culture cancel. I think that’s the one that is taking over of the therapist, and in that is just because we want to do everything right. We are a perfectionist in our field, so that’s one of them. Is like, stop it. You do EMDR, you’re going to be able to help your your client. But the other thing that I want to mention is when we focus too much on perceptions. So is this culture is okay for this? Is this drama is okay for this? Or even devices that we have, such as, is this clay is going to be okay because they’re from another culture or different language, or, you know, whatever we want to say. So I think we therapists tend to get on our way when we. Have too many fears because of the perceptions and projections that we tend to adapt to or project onto.

 

Kim Howard  15:07

A good reminder for all of us, whether we’re therapists or not, so thank you. What would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR therapy with this population?

 

Liliana Baylon  15:17

That it can be transformative. They’re navigating so many complex issues and identities, especially when they’re coming to another country, there’s so many stressors challenges that they’re going through that EMDR can be transformative for them. We can help them reduce stress. We can process their trauma. We can help them to reclaim I was just thinking of the little child with the lunch to reclaim their identity, the sense of self that I want everyone to know that EMDR is one of those models that can be transformative for everyone that you apply it to.

 

Kim Howard  15:53

Thank you. How do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR therapist? You touched on this earlier, but in case you wanted to expand, I wanted to offer that question up.

 

Liliana Baylon  16:02

I want to say this, and I wanted to sound too cocky, so please just know that I really mean it. But this is something that I live in, and I breathe in. It’s everything that I read, is all the groups that I join, is the trainings that I seek. I go to trainers, and I’m asking the questions in regards to, how will this apply with other cultures. It’s what I teach. It’s what I do consultations on so truly in that sounds too cocky, but truly, this is, this is my world. This is what I breathe in every day.

 

Kim Howard  16:33

Because think of all those people that you’re helping; that’s good. We love it. Do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource you would suggest, either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

 

Liliana Baylon  16:43

I’m gonna be biased here, but honestly, our website EMDR, the toolkits that we have, they are amazing. We have it in different languages. If you’re working with children like I do, they have a children’s toolkit that you can use, I will say, if you wanna explain to other cultures what EMDR is we do an amazing job in EMDR, but you also go pick up Anna’s Gomez website. She has a beautiful metaphors on how to explain EMDR. That’s free. Jackie Flynn has a beautiful YouTube channel, and she just got awarded from EMDRIA [EMDR Advocacy Award], in a word for promoting EMDR. So those are free resources out there that you’re able to to borrow from these amazing people and utilize them with your clients.

 

Kim Howard  17:26

So, I will include their websites in the script podcast description, so that anybody’s listening who could go they can go find them, and I’ll also link to those resources that you mentioned. So yeah, that’s great. Thank you. Liliana, if you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be?

 

Liliana Baylon  17:43

Oh, this is so hard to think about. I was like, What are you talking about? I think I will be an advocate. Okay, yeah, I can see that. I can see that, absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  17:54

Is there anything else you want to add?

 

Liliana Baylon  17:56

Stay curious. Do consultations if you’re an EMDR therapist, seek out trainings, do consultations. If you feel stuck, welcome to The Club, and we all do so just stay curious and ask questions.

 

Kim Howard  18:11

A great way to end the podcast. Thank you, Liliana.

 

Liliana Baylon  18:14

Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you for having me.

 

Kim Howard  18:15

This has been the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast with our guest, Liliana Baylon. Visit www.emdria.org for more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our Find an EMDR Therapist Directory with more than 16,000 therapists available. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this free podcast wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.