Kim Howard  00:05

Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association for EMDRIA. I’m your host, Kim Howard. In this episode we are talking with EMDR Certified Therapist, Consultant and Trainer Rebecca Kase about polyvagal-informed EMDR therapy. Let’s get started. Today we’re speaking with EMDR, certified therapist, consultant and trainer Rebecca Kase to discuss polyvagal informed EMDR therapy. Thank you, Rebecca, for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

 

Rebecca Kase 00:33

No, I love being here and sharing space with you. So thanks for the invite.

 

Kim Howard  00:37

Rebecca, can you tell us about your path to becoming an EMDR therapist?

 

Rebecca Kase 00:40

So I had the fortunate opportunity to get trained in EMDR when I was still in grad school. And this was back in 2006. Before EMDR was recognized as an evidence based practice and was still considered kind of pseudoscience and woowoo. But I was able to land an internship at the rape crisis center, I had two supervisors who were practicing EMDR really supportive and advocates of EMDR, which, you know, today that doesn’t sound special. But in 2006, when EMDR was not evidence based, and it wasn’t recognized as it is today, that was a very fortunate thing. So I had these two supervisors who just encouraged me to get trained supported me to be able to implement it and use it in my clinical practice. And, gosh, it just really set the tone for the rest of my clinical career. And just how I learned to be a trauma therapist, I’m so grateful for that.

 

Kim Howard  01:31

Thank you for sharing that. Rebecca. We’re here today to talk about polyvagal-informed EMDR therapy. So can you please define that for us?

 

Rebecca Kase 01:40

Yeah, so polyvagal theory, right. Most therapists have heard of that model have probably gotten some training, especially trauma therapist, and I started learning polyvagal theory back in 2018 was doing some consultation was taking like all the trainings I could find with Steven Porges and Deb Dana. And I just really could see that there is a link between polyvagal theory and EMDR. And I started practicing and experimenting with the knowledge and wisdom from polyvagal theory along with some of the techniques and interventions I had learned from Deb Dana and a consultant who was trained by her. And all of a sudden this light bulb went off and I saw oh my gosh, polyvagal theory is already alive and well within the EMDR model. It’s just about how do we learn to explicitly and intentionally integrate it into the eight phases. And when we integrate polyvagal theory, I really believe it gives us a full well rounded framework for working with trauma and adverse experiences and toxic stress, because EMDR focuses on the storage of memory. But you don’t just think your memories you feel your memories, and memories when they get activated activate our autonomic nervous system, which is what like polyvagal theory is all about. So I see EMDR as like a user manual for explaining the storage of memory, and how memory per AIP, you know, leads to clinical symptoms and pathology and complaints. And I then see that polyvagal theory helps us to understand what those memories activate in the nervous system because it’s about the autonomic responses that help us to identify when a memory is maladaptive ly integrated when it is adaptively integrated. It helps us like the autonomic nervous system is what’s in the suds. That’s what we’re studying. When we ask for suds, the autonomic nervous system, the autonomic nervous system is driving those negative and positive cognitions. And so when we integrate polyvagal theory, the nervous system becomes the focus of assessment, intervention and outcome of treatment. Because both of these models are neuro informed, meaning they focus on our neurobiology and how we understand neurobiology to help clients heal. So this integration is allowing us to really recognize the intimate interconnectedness between memories and autonomic processes.

 

Kim Howard  04:09

Thank you, Rebecca. And you may have already answered this question. We’re gonna ask it anyway, in case you have any other information you want to share, how did you develop the concept for your new book, Polyvagal-informed EMDR Therapy: Neuro Informed Approach to Healing?

 

Rebecca Kase 04:22

Yeah, so again, I was I was wrestling with these concepts and looking for where’s the bridge? Where’s the bridge, and I was talking a lot with polyvagal-informed consultant, who’s also EMDR train, she’s certified, I believe, and I was just able to kind of bounce ideas off of her and eventually I saw, I was able to understand polyvagal theory enough that I could see how polyvagal theory was already alive and well with in all of the eight phases. And if we put more focus on polyvagal theory, it makes EMDR actually more effective. It doesn’t challenge the fidelity, it doesn’t change the EMDR model. It’s not like, hey, polyvagal EMDR is asking you to modify the eight phases, not at all. It’s about oh, now I have this other lens to be able to understand memories and symptoms and what healing really looks like. And honestly, like, really, the place that I put this all together was during the pandemic. So one of the ways that I coped in 2020, when you know, my husband and I were kind of on lockdown, and everything was online, is I just spent a lot of time in Canva, playing around with my ideas. I am a very visual person. And so I started kind of writing out some of my ideas and using illustrations. And all of a sudden, I really found through kind of the integration of art in a way that you can find in Canva. If anybody uses Canva out there, I’m sure lots of people do. That’s what really led to Oh, my gosh, now I have the whole model. And how do I write it down for folks? Which that was a whole other journey?

 

Kim Howard  06:02

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, if you started in 2020, and it’s what didn’t come out, it wasn’t published. 2024? 23. Yeah. So it takes a while for things to get from ideas, pen to paper, so to speak, or keyboard to screen. And so yeah, I know, there’s a lot of work. So thanks for doing that. Yeah. Rebecca, are there any specific complexities of using this treatment approach?

 

Rebecca Kase 06:26

So I mean, using this treatment approach is I’ve you know, I’ve talked about this, in many places, wrote a whole book on it. hardest thing I’ve ever self imposed on myself, I will say, writing writing a book on academic neurosciences, you have lots of moments where you question your choices and talk to Steven Porges. about it in depth, Dana, and, you know, have done lots of trainings on it at this point. And it doesn’t, it doesn’t add complexities, it does the opposite. It makes things much more simpler, I think. And what I find from folks who have gone through my trainings and read the book is they say, Oh, my gosh, I see EMDR differently. Now, not gonna like you change the model, I want to be very clear, like, this is like I’m changing the model. It is. Now I understand what I’m doing in phase three. Now I understand how I can be more warm and engaged in Phase four. And how that actually helps right? Phase four desensitization is one of the tricky places for a lot of EMDR clinicians, because you feel like, I need to stay out of the way. So I can’t talk much, I can’t ask a bunch of questions. But that doesn’t mean you just like check out leave room with your neurobiology. And so polyvagal theory really allows EMDR therapists to warm up the model to be able to better understand what clients need and face to to be able to proceed into reprocessing. It’s I think it’s been EMDR. Like missing link. I see that too, is like peanut butter and jelly. And if you just have like a peanut butter sandwich, I mean, it’s good, but it’s not quite as good as when you add the jelly like, it’s just better. It’s not complex. It’s like just that. Yeah.

 

Kim Howard  08:08

So here’s a really important question. Grape or strawberry jelly with the peanut butter?

 

Rebecca Kase  08:13

Strawberry all the way, all the way.

 

Kim Howard  08:15

Yes!

 

Rebecca Kase  08:16

No raspberry.

 

Kim Howard  08:17

You are my people. What successes have you seen using polyvagal informed EMDR therapy?

 

Rebecca Kase 08:29

So one is that when you use the preparation hierarchy model, which I outlined in my book, talk about my trainings, that model is completely informed by Porges’s work, and I’ve shared it with him. And the preparation hierarchy is not like an MLM pyramid scheme. The prepper hierarchy is meant to help outline. These are the neurophysiological skills, the client needs to successfully reprocess of memory using the standard protocol. And one of the common things that EMDR clinicians get tripped up on and who a little scared around is in the client ready to reprocess the memory? What if I break them? What if I go too fast, they spontaneously burned a place which today I have no knowledge has ever happened to anyone, but people are afraid they’re gonna break their clients, so to speak, right? So the preparation hierarchy was designed to help take some of those, you know, the confusion and the insecurity and the lack of you know, assuredness out of like, Is my client ready for reprocessing? And another huge success I think, with EMDR and polyvagal theory integrated within to it is when you learn how to use a social engagement system within phase four your clients get stuck less. What I find is as I’ve really been able to harness the power of the social engagement System, which is you know, a big component of polyvagal theory within phase four work. I don’t need interweaves as much. My clients aren’t you know, getting stuck in our reactions or not getting stuck in an intense emotions are not chained down, like the nervous system, the pathway that’s needed for integration between that hippocampus, the prefrontal cortex, the amygdala stays open and available, so you can integrate memories more smoothly. And quickly.

 

Kim Howard  10:16

Thank you. That’s a great explanation. I appreciate that. I know it’s, it’s probably hard to break that down, because it’s complicated. But thank you for doing that. So, Rebecca, are there any myths you would like to bust about working with this approach?

 

Rebecca Kase  10:29

No myths, I think, sometimes if red bulk, or taking a train and eating or gotten any exposure, and they just hear the model, they think, Oh, you’re just like modifying EMDR. I think I’ve said multiple times here. And I want to say, again, polyvagal informed EMDR does not modify the protocol, not like changing anything that is evidence based with this protocol. It’s just enhancing all the brilliant work of Francine, and all of our colleagues out there who have put so much time and effort into building the research base that supports EMDR. So I want to be very clear about that. Because we have a lot of modified protocols out there. And they get us kind of flippantly and passed around flippantly. And the danger there is that they haven’t been researched. You know, somebody kind of made something up and tried it and it works with one client. And so this is not about a modified protocol. This is about adding a neuro informed theoretical orientation that helps you to do EMDR better. And then the other myth that I sometimes hear from folks are the other misunderstanding that myth, I should say misunderstanding is when I talk about how to be more engaged in face for, I’m not saying that you are really verbose with like what you say, and you’re asking all these questions and like, how does that reminds you of your mother and tell me let’s let’s extract an interpret feeling and meaning from that note, like, we’re not doing that stuff, because we still got to stay out of the way. But with polyvagal theory, it teaches you that your social engagement system is really based in well, how we engage with each other is based in what we do with our physiology. So what we say, like the tone of voice the US with what we say, you know, I don’t know any of you who can relate with like your partner, when it’s like, it’s not how you said it? It’s like, it’s what is that what you said, it’s how you said,

 

Kim Howard  12:20

Oh, I’ve never heard that before, for my husband never, ever had.

 

Rebecca Kase  12:23

Right. Like how we hear tones of voice conveys more than what was actually said. And the same thing goes for our body language, our facial expressions, our eye contact, a timely smile, a timely breath, a head tilt, it’s just the right time, things like that really, are what conveyed to another human being, whether you are friend or foe, whether you are engaging, whether you are empathic, that’s what conveys your unconditional positive regard. It’s not about I have unconditional positive regard for what you’re feeling right now. Right? It’s about much positive regard and compassion for what you’re going through. So polyvagal theory really helps us to understand how we stay socially engaged in face for outside of goal interventions. And that is a game changer for a lot of folks who go through trainings, or read the book of seeing that and then putting that into practice. It’s like, oh, my gosh, this changed everything. And it really I think, does EMDR service, because EMDR has this myth out there, right of being like, it’s a direct and rigid and kind of robotic protocol. It can be like really dry. And like, yeah, if you apply it without your social engagement system online, it can feel robotic, and that’s not very appealing to most people. So I think polyvagal theory within EMDR helps us to understand what the social engagement system is, how to use it, and how it really benefits therapy. I mean, it’s what therapy is all about. Anyway, the number one factor for positive treatment outcomes, the relationship, the social engagement.

 

Kim Howard  14:05

I’m glad you mentioned that. And I will say it again, I’ve got to say like a broken record for anybody who’s listened to our podcast before, but finding the right therapist is like dating. Sometimes it’s hit or miss, sometimes it’s practice makes perfect. And you have to, you know, find the right person to be your therapist. And if there is, if you feel like there’s not the right fit, and you need to move on in a polite way to say, Hey, I’m gonna need to find somebody else. This is not working for me, and here’s why and maybe get the therapist the chance to fix it feel like you can be fixed. You gotta go to somebody else who, who you think is going to be better for you. So yeah, permission to do that as a as a client or as a patient. So I’m glad you talked about facial expressions and tone of voice and all of those things. I try to impart that on my children who are young adults now but you know, to remind them when you’re texting somebody, you don’t have eye contact. You don’t have facial expressions, you don’t have tone of voice If you don’t have like you said body language, you have no idea how they’re receiving the information that you’re giving, and you’re not receiving their information the same as if you were in person or face to face, you know, even on a video call, so be careful.

 

Rebecca Kase  15:13

Yeah, absolutely. I love that you said that, because polyvagal theory helps us to understand how we can be how we can convey emotion with each other, when we can’t actually see each other when we’re communicating over text or email, right. And I mean, for me, personally, I start out every email that I’m responding to just like, Hey, how are you or hope you have a great weekend are like, Hey, what’s up? How’s it going? Right? With a friendly introduction. Because if I just say, Kim, comma, do you did it, I just sound very, like pragmatic, and we’re just professional here. But like you and I have a relationship at this point, right? Like, we’ve worked into that. And we’ve like, worked together multiple times now. And so I always want to convey through my email, like, I’m a friendly collaborator here, because you write one email sounding kind of harsh or off putting and all of a sudden, like, you don’t know the effect that has on somebody else. And so I think that’s an important thing for us to all. Think about. How do I convey my tone and my presence and my emotional state in this email, if I’m frustrated with someone or something, or they’re like, You, this is strike three, they’re probably not getting that email, it says, Hey, how are you? It says, Kim, I am concerned, right? You’re gonna change and tell them by email. But I do that intentionally.

 

Kim Howard  16:37

Yeah. And I will say I’m, I’m very bad about, about doing those things. If I’m emailing back and forth with somebody, not necessarily the first email out of the gate, especially if I’m approaching somebody to be on the podcast, or write an article for the magazine, you know, I’m a little more open and friendly or at that point, but once I’ve got the relationship going, it’s a little more kind of straightened to the point. And if some people don’t interpret that, the same way, I interpret it. So if you’ve ever gotten an email from me, it’s been like that, my apologies. That was never my intention. So we’ll have to get better about being friendly or in emails when I’m, you know, back and forth with people. So they won’t think that I’m just, you know, stern and blowing them off or something. So, it’s so strict over there. That’s right. Oh, my gosh, golly, they were so tight. Rebecca, what would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about polyvagal informed EMDR therapy?

 

Rebecca Kase  17:35

Well, I think what I would like people to know is that you have to feel to heal, and polyvagal on EMDR, I think really give us a pathway to being able to feel the things that we need to feel so that we can heal them and integrate them. Because when we’re stuck in our traumas responses, we’re really just stuck in survival mode. And when you really get into the work, and you feel the things that maybe you don’t want to feel, but I promise you feel them. And they’re they kind of catalyzed they digest, just like your turkey, which that you eat lunch, when you feel it heal that stuff, then you get to thrive. And then you get to really form and thriving is the outcome of the state of your nervous system. And you know, all when when you feel happy or sad or anxious or scared or bloated or gassy, or tired. I mean, all those things. They’re all made possible because of the functioning of your neurobiology. And so if you seek out polyvagal, and EMDR, as a model for, you know, healing, if you find a therapist who’s trained in these models, you’re really working with somebody who’s focusing on the whole system that’s driving all of your symptoms properly, which is your nervous system. And the better we can take care of our system, the better we can understand our neurobiology, the better we can work with it instead of feeling like it’s working us. And polyvagal theory alone, I think really gives us a framework for doing that of understanding. This is what my nervous system needs to be its best. And this is how I’m going to work with it so that it doesn’t feel just out of control.

 

Kim Howard  19:12

It’s a great explanation. Thank you. Do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource you would just either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

 

Rebecca Kase  19:22

Yeah, so for EMDR therapists if you go to my site, Kase and co.com at the top, we have a menu we have a whole resource section and we have quite a plethora of resources there. We have a whole trauma toolkit download that is some of like the best standards of practice when it comes to treating trauma polyvagal information in there somatic therapy, techniques, some ifs techniques, some information about just psycho ed, three phases of trauma is trauma. We have download on, you know specific interventions and education tools to use with clients without polyvagal theory, or EMDR in somatic therapy or addictions or disordered eating. So we have a ton of resources there, I highly recommend that you check out.

 

Kim Howard  20:12

I will put a link in the episode description so that listeners can go and check it out. And I think you’re the first person on the podcast to use the word plethora. So I like it, because that’s one of my favorite words – plethora. And accoutrements is also another favorite word of mine, although I don’t use it very often. But when my son was little, and he was going to bed, you know, kids go to bed, but like stuffed animals, and they got to have their book or whatever. And I don’t know, he’s like, five, maybe maybe six and like, you’re gonna pick all your accoutrements. And I didn’t think anything about it. And he asked me what it meant. And I kind of explained it to him. And then like, a couple weeks later, two or three weeks later, whatever it was, he’s using the word accouterments, and I was like, holy cow. Did I just come out of your mouth when he was five? That’s yeah, obviously, it was pretty young. I mean, he was young enough to go to bed with a stuffed animal. So he must have been around kindergarten age. So.

 

Rebecca Kase  21:11

Well, I’ll make sure I sneak in some accoutrements to our next email or something. Noted.

 

Kim Howard  21:16

Next time you’re presenting and use your accoutrements in the therapy room. No, I’m just kidding. All right, Rebecca, if you want an EMDR therapist, what would you be?

 

Rebecca Kase  21:26

I would be a professional spa reviewer.

 

Kim Howard  21:31

I like it. Where are we going first and we can we go there for like a weekend?

 

Rebecca Kase  21:39

Massage is one of my like, I get a massage every month, like my body needs it. That’s like my morning self care strategy. I love nothing more than treating myself and go on to a day spa. And I have gone to so many spas and resorts to this point that I have some very high standards of what makes like a good spa. I was talking to my mom recently, after I went to her and I was giving her some feedback. And she’s like, You should like write reviews, like I should. Maybe that’ll be my next business. So yeah, Spot professional spa and resort reviewer. So I can also travel for free.

 

Kim Howard  22:14

Yeah, I like that. I like that idea. I always wanted to name streets. I think naming streets will be fun. And I think I think naming albums would be fun, as well as I have no connection to the music industry. And I have no connection to urban planning. But I’m like, who names the communities and the streets because I want to do that. one before that’s very unique. I mean, do you have the skills to name bands? Do you think you’d come up with band names? I don’t know. Maybe that just like that would be kind of fun to you know, come up with? I don’t know. I don’t think they have people who actually do just that. But anyway, I think it did. Yeah, I think that’d be kind of fun. Is there anything else you’d like to add? Rebecca do you have anything else to add?

 

Rebecca Kase  22:59

have for EMDR therapists out there. Just remember to have fun with the work that you’re doing. We get the honor and the privilege to help people heal. And they invite us into their lives, to bear witness to the very scary stuff that they hold in their closets. And they’re afraid to share with anyone else. So make sure that you’re doing your own work, talk the talk, walk, walk and body what you preach, be your message. Just a lot of quotes here for us at the end of our podcast. But that’s one of my biggest frustrations in our field is just the lack of emphasis on how important it is that we heal ourselves and do our own work. We’re gonna show up and be that person for someone else because you’re nervous is your greatest clinical tool. Make sure you keep it clean, and sharp, rested.

 

Kim Howard  23:47

Great way to end the podcast. Thanks, Rebecca. This has been Let’s Talk EMDR podcast with our guests Rebecca Kase. Visit www.emdria.org or to use our Find an EMDR Therapist Directory with more than 16,000 therapists available. Like what you hear? Make sure you subscribe to this free podcast wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.