Kim Howard  00:00

Kim, welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR Podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association, or EMDRIA. I am your host, Kim Howard. Let’s get started. Today, we are speaking with EMDRIA Certified Therapist and Approved Consultant Katie Quinlan to discuss women and niceness in the EMDR therapy room. Thank you, Katie, for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

 

Katie Quinlan  00:27

Thank you for inviting me. I’m thrilled to be here.

 

Kim Howard  00:31

Katie, can you tell us about your path to becoming an EMDR therapist?

 

Katie Quinlan  00:35

Yeah. You know, in hindsight, I think I was late to the party, both as a therapist and as an EMDR therapist. I actually was a French major in my undergrad, which was, you know, really useful. I loved it. It was a wonderful experience.

 

Kim Howard  00:51

You might…you might get somebody who comes in and can speak French and would prefer that you never, never know.

 

Katie Quinlan  00:56

That’s absolutely right. They would probably be very sad with my French these days. But so and then I worked in the corporate world for a while, probably for about four to five years, and then I kind of figured out what I wanted to be when I grew up. So I went to grad school in my mid 20s, mid to late 20s, and then was a licensed therapist for about 10 years before I finally got trained. Did the basic training for EMDR therapy and and then when I was first trained, I was using it kind of sporadically and using it more as an intervention for clients that had trauma histories, but I found my home at the Center for Excellence in EMDR therapy, and really trained to be an EMDR psychotherapist, so I use it now with every client that I see.

 

Kim Howard  01:48

That’s a great origin story. Thank you for for sharing that with us, and I will tell you in commiseration about wanting to be what you know did making your decision which but what you wanted to be when you grew up. I changed my major three times in college, and I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one out there who did that. First I was pre med and I don’t know what made me think I was going to be successful in that, because I’m terrible at math and science, but I had one doctor since I was like, 10, I wanted to be a pediatrician desperately. And then I at first semester, I was like, this is not going to work, because I have four more years of this, and then four more years of med school, and I am awful at this. So then I was working almost full time retail, and I thought, Oh, this kind of business major. And then I got into accounting, and oh, my lord, I hated accounting. I took one semester that, and I’m like, There’s no way I cannot be a business major. So I had taken a speech communications class, and that professor said, Have you ever thought about journalism? And I’m like, No, tell me more. And then that’s how I got connected to journalism and public relations. So thank God for that professor, you know, getting me on the right path, because I was flailing around, not, yeah, not picking the right majors. So everybody finds a niche.

 

Katie Quinlan  01:53

I think they do. They absolutely do. I think I was thinking pre-med, my first year of college, and same as you, I took a bioenergetics and genetics class. And was like, Yeah, this is, this is not for me. I could do three more years working really hard, or I could do three more years having fun and speaking French, so…

 

Kim Howard  03:22

Is that option two on the phone? Yeah, that’s good. You may have already alluded to this, but I’ll ask a question anyway. What’s your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy, Katie?

 

Katie Quinlan  03:32

Oh, gosh, where to start. I mean, certainly, reprocessing is an incredible experience, and it’s unlike anything in any other therapy. So you know, really being able to support people to move through in real time what they couldn’t in trauma time is a pretty incredible privilege. But actually, I think my favorite part is in developing the AIP treatment plan, and really re contracting with the client as they start to heal and they make progress. And I think a lot of clients come in wanting symptom relief, but they they have no idea why they’re struggling in the ways that they’re struggling. And so I think to truly have a mutual understanding with a client, of the client struggle that goes beyond the what and really looks at the why and exploring that past present connection. It’s just incredibly organizing and stabilizing, I think, both for the client and for the clinician. So I just think that that AIP treatment plan is just, is such an incredible map in how we work?

 

Kim Howard  04:44

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Katie. How does the concept of women being nice impact in EMDR therapy efforts?

 

Katie Quinlan  04:54

Well, we come from a culture, and many of us from a developmental history in. Which being nice is rewarded for women, I think from a trauma perspective, being nice or quiet or doing what we’re told, or caretaking or over functioning is absolutely how women survived their family systems, their traumatic experiences, and even their perpetrators. So these adaptations work, or they may serve women until they don’t. And so I think another piece of that that I want to mention is looking at the importance of intersectionality and having multiple identities. So there’s being a woman, and then there’s the culture of being female and a woman of color, and some of the stereotypes that are involved in that intersectionality, like the strong black woman, for example. So for women, like establishing credibility of for an African American woman, of you know, wanting to be nice could be magnified, having to go up against that type of stereotype, there’s just an additional demand characteristic to fitting in and gaining approval and avoiding that stereotype that is specific to women of color. Think another example of that is of intersectionality, is looking at women and women of a particular religious orientation. And you know, not only are there the expectations of being a woman, but then maybe needing to conform to the expectations in a religion that might be a little more based on performance and how you’re showing up, and less on authenticity. So I’m just bringing that up because I think for many of our clients, the intersectionality of multiple identities can really feed into that adaptation of looking better and feeling better and making things better than they actually are, and then that can really reinforce their trauma. Can I give an example of the yes, okay, so of that adaptation of of looking better or having things be better than they are. So I have a client named I’ll just make up a name. Her name is Marie, who will often tell me how she would she should feel so lucky for all she has, and her problems seem so ridiculous. They’re not that big. Why are things so hard for her? And she’s telling this to me with a smile on her face and tears just streaming down her cheeks. So she comes from a family with a step parent who is very authoritarian and very abusive to her and her siblings, and so she learned to do everything she could to make things easier for herself and for everyone else, there was no room for her to have any other feelings, certainly of anger or disappointment or sadness. So recently, her one of her adult siblings disclosed really the enormity of the abuse that he experienced at the hands of the step parent, and her first reaction was to try to minimize what happened to her brother who she adored, and focus on the positive aspects of her step parent and how he showed up for them. So if that’s how defended she is about her brother, imagine how well defended she is when it comes to her own experience. So that was one of the situations where we really had to re contract on what we’re working on, because I’m not going to be complicit in minimizing what she or her brother experienced. And so I had a gentle but clear conversation with her that how she learned to cope is getting in the way of her seeing herself and those that she loves clearly, and would she be willing to consider that she’s safe now, to really approach her experience of what happened and without having to minimize it or defend it or make it better than it is. So I’m honoring what she had to do and offering her an invitation to explore doing it in a different way.

 

Kim Howard  09:05

Yeah, that’s a great example. And, you know, I have two children, one boy and one girl, and they’re both young adults. I remember when we were raising our daughter, particularly because she was fiercely independent, like a lot of girls are, and also stubborn, and it was difficult for us to make sure that we raised her in a way that encouraged her positive traits in terms of leadership and stepping out and and speaking up for herself, but also raise her in a way that didn’t drive us nuts, quite frankly, you know? And it’s a fine it’s really a fine line when you have to raise children, and so at least with women, and I’m sure that this happens to some men too, you know, parents tell us to be nice instead of being kind, and there’s a difference between those two words, yeah. And so women translate that to be a nice oh, I don’t want to offend anybody, right? I don’t want to right, even though this guy is following me down an alley at midnight from this club, I’m he’s not suspicious. I’m sure he’s just going home. You know, we don’t trust our intuition in dangerous or potentially dangerous situations because we don’t want to offend anybody. It takes a long time for us to learn that we need to trust our intuition, and you don’t need to be nice to everybody, you know, you can be kind, but you don’t have to be nice to everybody all the time. And so it’s really difficult for us. And I think when you talked about the religious connotation as well, you know, we’re Catholic, and so our kids went to Catholic school for the first my daughter was first three years, and my son was the first five years, and then we they went to public school after that. And that’s the same thing, you know, it’s, it’s that there’s that not dogma, but there’s this association with students, especially at an elementary age, that you know, they have to sit back and be quiet and and be nice and, and sometimes that’s just not right. I mean, I’m ready. Sometimes it’s just not the right time to do it, yeah? And sometimes it’s dangerous, right?

 

Katie Quinlan  11:12

Right? To teach women to override that gut, knowing, that instinct that we have. I think that’s and. And to your point, it can start from really early on.

 

Kim Howard  11:21

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you when somebody steps into the therapy room, you guys have a lot of, I mean, it goes back. It could go back decades, you know, depending on how old the client is, in terms of, of trying to sort of reprogram their intuition to turn that nice button off, and just, you know, learn to trust your intuition and to speak up for yourself in a, you know, good way. You don’t have to be rude to everybody. You don’t have to go the extreme opposite, but, you know, you have to sort of defend yourself in some situations. And so I’m glad you guys are working on that. Yeah, yeah. Katie, what are the specific complexities or challenges during EMDR therapy when working with women who might try to be nice in the EMDR therapy room?

 

Katie Quinlan  12:02

Well, I’m going to talk about a few. One, I think, is what we just talked about, right? Is that the complexity around supporting clients to take a larger view and maybe see how being nice might be problematic or getting in their way. Another is, I have had more than one client come in explicitly asking for support on how to do it all better. And I think that one challenge we have for clinicians is not to help women be more nice. I think over functioning or never saying no is really a struggle for many women. Can I give an example, like a case example? Yes, please. Okay. I have a client whose name is Ella, who came in completely frazzled, not eating, not sleeping, stressed all the time. She’s a single mother of two kids. She’s working overtime in a really high stress professional career, very demanding career, and she simultaneously substitute teaching at her children’s school because she just doesn’t want to say no or disappoint the administrators and the teachers at the school. Meanwhile, she’s working all hours of the night to try to actually do her real job. So when we started to talk about what was happening for her, and we completed the float back and were curious about that past present confusion that really had her believing that she always had to say yes and keep everyone happy, lo and behold, it came from a significant trauma history and her family resulting from domestic violence. So that made sense. But to be clear, she was initially coming to me to to learn how to manage it all and fulfill, feel fulfilled and calm, right? And when we were, when we collaborated and were really able to look more carefully at her struggle, she recognized that her work was not around learning how to do to do it all with a smile, but actually how to approach her devastation for herself and what she had to do her whole life. And after we were able to reprocess through that, she was much more able to consider how she wants to show up for herself and for her children in her current life and in the future. And, you know, I can’t tell you how much we celebrated when she took her name off of that substitute teacher list. I mean, it was just crazy. And then I think the last thing I would say is a third challenge that I would love for clinicians to consider is the importance of the future template. We can’t assume that women will just automatically know how to step in their lives differently, like Ella had no idea how to set limits on her time or her involvement. We had to do a. Lot of work around that, and once you’ve you’ve resolved that past present confusion, women may need more support to really think about how they say no, what that looks like for them, what that feels like for them, because it may not be something that they have a lot of experience with. Yeah, absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  15:17

And I’m aging myself here, but I’ve been pretty open about my age, and so back in the day, they had a campaign. It was actually an anti drug campaign started by, I think it was in the Reagan White House: “Just say, no.” Yeah, that that phrase, just say no. You know, reverberates even now, because now we use the term bandwidth. How much bandwidth Do you have? You know, whether it’s a work thing or a volunteer thing, all of us have to take a look and say, how much can I really take? How much more can I take on and and am I, and when I, if I did take it on, what I really be able to give 100% to, whatever that question is, whatever that ask might be. And if you can’t give 100% or even, or if you just don’t want to do it, like if you don’t want to bake 100 cupcakes for the bake sale at the PTA for the school. Just don’t do it. Just say no. You know, absolutely. And you don’t have to know, you don’t have to give a qualifier. You know, you you have permission just to say no without giving a qualifier. Well, no, I can’t, because I’m going out of town, or No, I haven’t worked. Just say no. And if they ask for a qualifier, say I just don’t have the bandwidth or whatever, you know, and just tell Yeah, yeah.

 

Katie Quinlan  16:24

I mean, Ann Lamont. I think it’s Ann Lamont who said no is a complete sentence.

 

Kim Howard  16:29

I’ve heard that too. No is a complete sentence, exactly, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

 

Katie Quinlan  16:33

And I think it’s also, if you’re noticing that you’re doing it over and over and over at the expense of yourself, there’s a possibility that there’s something else fueling that, that there’s some older stuff you need to work through. So I think from a trauma perspective, that’s also how we would think about, you know, those situations where you’re saying yes and yes and yes and, my God, you don’t

 

Kim Howard  16:53

know why, feeling some kind of need that you don’t realize you’re trying to fulfill. Yep, absolutely. As an EMDR therapist, how do you handle those discussions with your clients? You kind of alluded to it, but in case there’s something else you want to add….

 

Katie Quinlan  17:05

Yeah, well, Brene Brown once said to be unclear is to be unkind. And I think there’s a lot of truth to that. You already named this. And I think we as therapists often confuse being nice with being kind. And I think in terms of my work, I’ve really evolved in how I have these conversations with clients, in large part due to the consultation that I’ve received. I’ll never forget the first transcript of my client that I presented to my consultant, and my consultant is Deany Laliotis, who you may know. And I mean, this was not my worst piece of work, like I was, you know, I went light. I had some questions, but I was really trying to show off a little bit, like, look how present and kind I am with the client. But also legitimately, I’m stuck and I and I have some questions and I’m confused, so I show her this work, and I’m, I’m ready to maybe hear some compliments, maybe get a little bit of guidance. And Dean was incredibly compassionate, but she helped me see really quickly where my efforts to be nice caused me to work way too hard to collude with my client and actually keep us stuck in the work. And I was really confused that I was the agent of change and ignoring the fact that I didn’t really have a client who was on board to do the work. And so, you know, I’m no Deany Laliotis by any stretch of the imagination, but that that consultation absolutely changed the way I work, because she cared enough about me to tell me the truth and really helped me see my struggle, and I felt really empowered by that to start doing things differently and working on seeing things more clearly and really asking more from myself and from my clients, that that’s I want to be able to give every client I work with that same respect.

 

Kim Howard  18:59

Absolutely. And I feel like, if you can’t be truthful in the therapy room, where else are you going to be truthful? I mean, it’s kind of like when you go to the doctor’s office for your annual checkup and you get on the scale because they have to do your weight, your blood pressure, you can’t this the truth. The number is the truth. You can’t change; you can’t hide it. You can’t you can’t twist it around. This is what it is. And so I feel like if you can’t be open and truthful in therapy. My goodness, you know how the rest of your life going to be. So it’s great advice. Thank you.

 

Katie Quinlan  19:26

And it only works for so long. It comes out eventually. Yes,

 

Kim Howard  19:30

I would presume it does. Yeah. Are there any myths that you would like to bust about working with EMDR therapy and women who might hold back during a session?

 

Katie Quinlan  19:37

Yeah, I think one myth is looking at what is nice and that women are nice. I think we I mean, women have the same range of emotions that all humans do, but often we’ve been encouraged to favor some like gratitude or joy or generosity or happiness or even stoicism. Over others due to our society, our culture, our family systems, our laws, our rhetoric, so touching into deeper anger, sadness, righteousness, guilt, grief, disappointment, betrayal, that can be the way towards healing, especially when women are able to really full, fully hold their experience and what happened to them. So I guess, if that’s not being nice, I think we need more nasty women.

 

Kim Howard  20:39

True story.

 

Katie Quinlan  20:42

The other one, the other the other myth, I would say, is that being like nice or quiet or reserved or the peacemaker. I hear that one all the time. I’m the peacemaker of the family is who they are. I think one of the most groundbreaking interviews that can have a really profound resonance with women is in naming their niceness as an adaptation, rather than as who they are. So that might sound like, sound like would you be willing to consider that always saying yes is not who you are, but what you learned to do? And that really opens things up for the possibility that they can, can and should take control over how they women use their voice now in their life.

 

Kim Howard  21:30

Absolutely. absolutely. Thank you. Katie, what advice do you have for EMDR, therapist listening on how they can help these kinds of clients?

 

Katie Quinlan  21:38

I have a few pieces, actually. I think the first one is what we actually were just talking about, about that felt sense, that intuition, listen to your felt sense, if it looks too good to be true, it is. So if you have a client who’s saying the right thing, but it feels inauthentic. So, for example, my client who’s smiling and has tears streaming down her face like that is likely a client who is really good at minimizing their own experience and rationalizing their situation. So that’s a really important thing to pay attention to, is just your gut feel. So that’s the first thing I would I would advise the second thing is to pay attention to your counter transference. It’s nice to have nice clients. I mean, this is what I we you, and I have talked about this, but I wrote about one of my clients in the upcoming issue of go with that named Jessica, who presented as really independent and competent and professional and put together, and her work was really structured around her current anxiety and how it connected to a trauma response of having to obey and be submissive in a really, really abusive household. And, you know, we were doing some really good work. She was a joy to work with. She showed up fully committed, willing to go there, and then I hear from her psychiatrist that she’s having pretty significant suicidal ideation, and I had no idea she didn’t share that with me. So how could my model client not be transparent with me? Well, her whole trauma history was around being invisible and pleasing others, and I was blindsided by my sense of satisfaction and how well things were going and not seeing what was really happening. So needless to say, I owed her an apology. We had to do some repair work, and I had the opportunity to clarify that I have no expectations of how she shows up, and I really apologize if that’s not what I was communicating. And then I think the last thing I would advise is consultation, consultation, consultation. I think mentorship is a huge part of how we work at the center, because it really allows clinicians to do their best work and to stretch into the inherent uncertainty of that territory we’re embarking on with our clients. And then finally, I think, to be as brave as we’re asking our clients to be.

 

Kim Howard  24:13

Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Katie. Katie, how do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR therapist?

 

Katie Quinlan  24:19

This is a great question, because I live in Utah, which is not the most diverse state in the union, and so I really try to expand my horizons through a few ways. One is certainly continuing education. And right now, I’m currently taking a continuing ed course with Dr. Norma Day Vines and Dantavious Hicks from Johns Hopkins on culturally-responsive pedagogical and supervision practices, and they’ve done some really wonderful research on the practice of broaching, which is really looking at the counselors ability to consider how sociopolitical factors such as race. Face, influence the clients presenting concerns. So they’re wonderful, and that has been really eye opening in a lot of ways. The other thing, I’m also a big reader. I love to read and so and so I tried to really look for books that kind of helped me to see things broadly or from a different perspective. One of my favorite books this year was one called Badass Bonita, and it was written by Kim Guerra, who’s a licensed marriage and family therapist and actually very relevant to what we’re talking about today. She writes beautifully about the messaging that she received as a little Latina girl, that you look most beautiful when you are silent. And she Kim, I think, is for sure, a Badass Bonita. And the book is really about her journey through her own trauma, as well as the generational and cultural trauma that she experienced in her life to really claim the amazing voice that she has today. I She, she really, I love how she writes about boundaries as a form of self love, um, she’s, she’s just incredible. So those are some ways that I try to, to keep paying attention in the right ways.

 

Kim Howard  26:10

That’s great. We will put, we’d be happy to list that as a reference. I just like the title Badass Bonita, I think, yeah, something you can remember. But I will list that in the references as we get to that question later. But, yeah, that’s, that’s great, and I, and it is amazing to me, you know, back in the day, and I’m talking back in the day, 50, 100 years ago, plus, you know, children, children were to be seen and not heard. Yeah, we are still in 2025 talking about that. It’s just astounding to me that we have come so far, but we haven’t come that far. Apparently, you know that we that women and and possibly some men out there too, feel that they can’t speak up for themselves, and, you know, and they’re supposed to put on the space mask, you know, in public and be nice and not be really, truly who they are. And that’s, that’s it. We got to work on that. That’s not okay.

 

Katie Quinlan  27:00

So, yep, I think that’s it. It’s it’s not okay. Yeah.

 

Kim Howard  27:04

Do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource you would suggest, either for the public or other EMDR therapists? And if it’s not free, you can be paid. That’s fine. We’ll list it too.

 

Katie Quinlan  27:13

Oh, wonderful. Um, well, I, you know, not to brown nose, but I really love this podcast, and it’s free, so I listen to it regularly, and I think, and I refer people to it. I also love, I think it’s the EMDR video of what EMDR is. It’s just a very simple, I think, eight to 10 minute explanation, and then interviewing therapists and clients. And I use that all the time. So because, you know, clients are really confused about, what is this? EMDR, how does this work? I’m not sure I trust it. So I often will, will give that link which is free, and I know you have to pay for the membership, but I always find the articles in the go with that magazine to be really helpful, especially the ones on specific populations or different protocols, those are the big ones. I would probably say, yeah,

 

Kim Howard  28:04

yeah, that’s great. We will obviously list those in the podcast description. Thank you. I think the podcast has been sort of a labor of love that came out of a staff plan and retreat a few years back, and been really good. And it’s good to see the growth of it. And we like being able to connect the members in a different way, other than the blog or the magazine or the journal or speaking. So it’s been fun to do this, and so we really appreciate the feedback when somebody tells us we’re doing something right, or if we’re doing something wrong, how we can fix it. But that EMDR, the introduction to EMDR therapy video, just so people who listening will know it’s now available in other languages. So we have gotten a request in and so you can go to the settings, the gear settings on it, and you can translate. I think right now, there are six or eight languages that are the most popular in terms of our membership.

 

Katie Quinlan  28:33

That is a very cool thing…. I did, the French translation. Just kidding. I also just want to thank you, because I think the breadth and depth of the podcast and it’s fun, because you have some names on there that are people I recognize or know, and then some that I’ve not heard from before. So it’s just been a really lovely experience to tune in. Yeah,

 

Kim Howard  29:15

it’s really, it’s and it’s really interesting to sort of take a little bit of a deep dive into the members and what they do, and where they came from and how they found EMDR and the people that they serve. And so it’s, it’s, it’s a fun it’s a fun project. So yeah, we’re absolutely happy with it. So I’m not sure if, if you would be a French teacher or you would be a French guy, but if you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be, Katie?

 

Katie Quinlan  29:42

I would be an electric bass guitar player in a band.

 

Kim Howard  29:49

That’s pretty specific and very cool.

 

Katie Quinlan  29:52

Let me be clear. I have no idea how to play the electric bass guitar. It just looks so cool It does, doesn’t it? It. Like being in a band is so cool, I imagine. So, yeah, that would be mine.

 

Kim Howard  30:07

I think being in a band would be cool, except for me personally, I mean, that was I played clarinet in junior high in high school, when I was in the band all the way through senior year, and I played the guitar. But for me, personally, I can’t stay up that late. That whole thing about the show starts at seven, but we don’t come on stage till nine, and then we’re going till midnight. I’m like, Oh my gosh, I’m in my second REM sleep at midnight, in my pajamas at 6pm Are you kidding me? That schedule would never work for me. And then the whole thing about the loudness of it, I go to concert, I’m so old, I feel like I’m 150 years old. I’m like, it’s so loud in here. Turn it down. I feel like my parents.

 

Katie Quinlan  30:44

I hear that. I think if we start a band, we should probably do, like, more, you know, senior athlete

 

Kim Howard  30:49

kind of thing. Yeah, senior start like, three in the afternoon, and then the talent comes on at six, then we can all go home by 10. I mean….

 

Katie Quinlan  30:59

Totally.

 

Kim Howard  31:01

Katie, is there anything else you want to add?

 

Katie Quinlan  31:03

The last thing I would just say is, as a woman and as a therapist and as an EMDR therapist, I think one of the most supportive experiences that I’ve had is to be in community with like minded EMDR therapists who are also lifelong learners and interested in growth and comfortable with the fact that growth is uncomfortable. And so, you know, I found, I found I’m on the faculty at the Center for Excellence in EMDR therapy, and that experience and that community has profoundly changed my practice and the way I work and the way I do everything, really and so, and it helps to not be alone in it. So I would really strongly encourage EMDR therapists to check out our community, of course, because I love it, but and or to find community of your own, because this work is challenging. It’s exciting, and learning to be kind rather than nice is a journey for a lot of us.

 

Kim Howard  32:06

Yeah, that’s the brilliant thing about belonging to an organization like EMDR or center for excellence, or some place where you’ve got some kind of community, because the last thing you want to do in any profession is work in a void, right? And I feel like some professions are a little more like that, because most therapists own their own practice. So they’re working. They’re solo practitioners, basically. Some of them work in community settings. Some of them work for the VA or the DOD, etc, but the majority of the therapists out there in the whole world are running their own practices. So who are they going to talk to and say, Hey, I’ve got this thing happening that I don’t know how to fix it. They need a network of people. And so nobody understands your work except somebody who does your work. We all can sort of visualize it. We could say, oh, yeah, we get that. But unless you’re in the trenches doing the work, you really don’t understand what it all. It’s all about and so please, please find find your people, right?

 

Katie Quinlan  33:04

Find your people. Absolutely, yeah, I think it just makes the work more enjoyable and more efficient. Actually, you just get there faster when you’re not on your own. Absolutely.

 

Kim Howard  33:16

Thank you, Katie,

 

Katie Quinlan  33:17

You’re welcome.

 

Kim Howard  33:19

This has been the Let’s Talk EMDR Podcast with our guest, Katie Quinlan, visit www. emdria.org for more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our Find an EMDR Therapist Directory with more than 17,000 therapists available. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this free podcast wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.