Kim Howard 00:05
Welcome to the let’s talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association for emdria. I am your host Kim Howard. In this episode we are discussing addictions mindfulness and EMDR therapy. Today’s guest is EMDR therapist Dr. Steven Dansiger. Dr. Dansiger is based in California and has extensive experience working with clients who struggle with addictions. Find out how he works with clients who have addiction and incorporate mindfulness into his EMDR therapy practice. Let’s get started. September is National Alcohol and Drug Addiction Recovery Month and National Recovery Month. Today we sit down with EMDR therapist Dr. Steven Dansiger, who has spent the last three decades working with patients to overcome their trauma and addictions. Thank you, Steve, for being here today on our Let’s Talk EMDR podcast, we are so happy that you said yes.

Stephen Dansiger 00:55
thanks for having me, Kim, I’m really excited to be here.

Kim Howard 00:57
We are exicted to have you. Thank you. So tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming an EMDR therapist and your experience using EMDR for addiction.

Stephen Dansiger 01:05
So my journey to being a therapist was long and winding road style. And I started, my first vocation I ever had was punk rock drummer. And in the midst of all that, you know, just sort of almost as a lead into our conversation developed a substance abuse problem of my own. Talk a little bit about that later, maybe but I’ve stopped or my active substance use stopped when I was 26. And I went for a career counseling that was directed towards people in recovery that was sponsored by the Office of Disabilities in New York State. And that program is still there. By the way, one of those kinds of things that really could be helpful if it was more widespread. But I came out of that a high school English teacher. And as a high school English teacher, I found myself in a neighborhood where there was racial unrest. And my grandfather had taught me when something like that happens, you go towards and find out how you can help you don’t run away. And so I ended up offering my help. And then all these nonprofits came in and helped me to understand how to help I tell you all this, because it’s where my addictions, sort of my lived experience, met my lived experience of trauma. And through that whole process of getting trained, and then becoming myself a diversity trainer for like, 15 years after that, and being a witness to and facilitating discussions with people about these larger issues of trauma. I found myself face-to-face with my therapist, who one day said, you’d be good at this. And I said your job looks too hard. Yeah, like I was like this, what I do is hard enough. And you know, I’m really grateful for what you do for me, but hard pass. And that went on for like, two, three years. And when I moved out here to L.A., where I am now I met some friends who had made the move from New York to L.A. and like three of them had become therapists. And one of them was running a treatment center and an intensive outpatient here in L.A. And she said, hey, you want to run a group? I heard you’re out here. And I said, Well, I’m not a therapist, and she said, I need a teacher. She had a life skills group and an anger management group that she wanted, you know, more psychoeducation as an educator, right? And so I said, Yes. And I said, all like when I started doing it, I was like, Oh, this is what this is, you know, like, I had this whole other idea that it was gonna be painful or something like that, I was gonna get lost, and I loved it. And so, went back to school and got my master’s before I got my finished my doctorate. My first training site, or my first internship was at an addiction treatment center. And, and so that was another thing. Like, as I went through my therapy, education, I was like, I’m not going to do addictions, you know, I’m going to I’m going to do other things. And my first job is at the addiction treatment center. And what was going on there was the Clinical Director had had been trained in EMDR therapy and loved it. And so was using it as a frontline therapy in the treatment center, which, you know, this is I don’t know, what 2004 or five, so not really the norm at all. And so she had a client or we had a client who was really struggling and she was struggling. Yeah, she said, I can’t you know, I don’t know. And I was doing work with this young person on mindfulness because mindfulness teacher and I was working with them on just their spiritual recovery. And she said, I’m going to call you know someone from the EMDR community and get some consultation and she contacted Andrew Leeds and Andrew, Dr. Leeds, gave consultation and they invited me to sit in on the phone cos I just listened and I heard some language I recognized and some other language that I didn’t and by the end of it the consultation which was about a month like a weekly consultation for a month, the young person was doing a lot better Right. So I said, All right, train me, please. Dr. Leeds was doing a training like a month later. And that was the beginning of the journey.

Kim Howard 05:08
That’s a great story. I feel like there are divine interventions in our lives, or fate, or people that are that come into our lives who are carrying a message that we sometimes hear repeatedly, and we sort of ignore it. And then after the second, or third, or maybe the fourth, or maybe even the 10th time, all of a sudden, the light bulb goes off, and you’re like, Okay, this is where I’m supposed to be in the hustle that I’m supposed to be doing. And so it’s good that you embrace that, because I feel like that’s where you were meant to be. Apparently, you know, all of those things sort of lined up. And you you, you said yes, and you’re open to that. And that’s, that’s great. Look how many people that you’re helping through their trauma, and through their addictions, recover and live a happy, healthy life that they want, one that they choose, you know, not one, that’s Martin, and other things that are negative for them. So that’s, that’s wonderful. That’s great story. Thank you for sharing that.

Stephen Dansiger 06:04
Yeah, thank you, I, I just one beat that I skipped was when I got recovery and 12 Step programs, four months in, I got brought to Zen monastery for him a retreat, and I learned how to meditate and I never stopped and the dark connecting there, you know, the long and winding road was, you know, just in reference to what you just said, and thank you for all that. Kim, is that I asked Andrew, during the training, I said this is kind of there’s a mindfulness basis to this isn’t there? And he said, Absolutely. And I even conducted a series of interviews with him. And and he talked about that. And as soon as he said that, that was, you know, I’m thinking about what you’re just saying, you know, that was one of the major clicks for me in terms of like, you know, the trauma piece, like I grew up, I had my own personal trauma when my cousin passed away when I was a young person very, I was 12. And he was like an older brother figure. And then I come from a Jewish family and a very large portion of my family are survivors of the Holocaust. And so I had that familiarity, and then all the diversity conversations. And then everything else that I saw, mindfulness was a big part of how I was able to navigate all of these different worlds. And so when my mindfulness world met my therapist world, and it was validated, I was like, Oh, I know what to do now. Yeah, like, forever and ever. But I know what to do now.

Kim Howard 07:28
It kind of clicks and it meshes. And you’re like, This, is it? This is how it’s supposed to be for me. Yeah, that’s great. That’s great. Thank you, what’s your favorite part of working with addictions and recovery.

Stephen Dansiger 07:38
I think that now that I’ve done it for as long as I have, and now that I’ve done it for as long as I have with EMDR therapy at the center of it, and sort of seeing the trauma basis, or the connection between trauma and addiction, I love it, I won’t call it try new things, or call it more like continuing to learn how to make those help facilitate those connections for my clients, and also to help facilitate those kinds of connections for communities, you know, whether it be a recovery community, whether it be a treatment center, whether it be a hospital, whether it you know, I’m really into helping people see this all systemically a lot of the work that I do now is working with centers and working with not just the clinicians, but working with everyone, you know, from the C suite to the people who are, you know, take care of the grounds or cooking the food at the treatment center, everyone, if everyone gets some awareness and training and ability to know how to participate in trauma focused care, well, you know, with EMDR therapy, that, you know, the results are going to be better, I guess that’s what I’ve loved is that I’ve persisted. You know, there was a time around 2015, where I was like, Okay, I’m done. And then I got offered another opportunity, you know, like, have you thought of doing it this way, which was to open a Buddhist treatment center. And then that encouraged me to say, hey, well, this treatment center is great. What if we did EMDR therapy with everybody? And so I was born again, around this idea of there’s so much hope in working in addictions, as opposed to where I was, quite honestly, I was at that burnout place. Right. And so that’s my favorite thing about working with addiction recovery right now is the element of how the work that my team does around reducing burnout and watching people be able to have sustainable careers, not just the EMDR therapist, but you know, everyone, everyone in general, right. Yeah. And then, and helping therapists to see how EMDR therapy is actually easier. The therapist know that when it’s done,

Kim Howard 09:45
Yeah, I just interviewed Rebecca Kase and the topic was about self care. She talked about, you know, how you’re, literally your cup cannot be empty, especially as a therapist, you know, and it’s crucial that people who listen into other people’s woes and trauma and horrific life events, that they somehow refill their cup in a positive way so that it prevents burnout long term and she offered some tips for the podcast and it takes a special person to do the work that all of you do. Because that I would suspect it’s not easy. And it must be extremely difficult emotionally and psychologically to you know, be in a client room and listen to all their, their issues. And so all that, you know, it’s not a great job description, right? Hey, come be a therapist, you can listen to everybody’s problems, you know, and, and so therapists in general, to make sure that they’re, they’re taking care of themselves, because it is an easy burnout profession. And so if you want to keep doing that kind of work and making a difference, then you’re going to have to take care of yourself first. And so that’s, that’s good that you mentioned that and that you’ve combined that in a way that people are listening to it. So thank you, thank you for doing that. What successes or value ads have you seen regarding using EMDR therapy with addictions?

Stephen Dansiger 11:03
So when I do my foundational trainings, you know, the six days, often at the beginning, I’ll say, you know, you’re about to, you know, be introduced to the extreme sports version of, you know, EMDR therapy as a complete psychotherapy. Right? That’s been one of my I presented around that in 2000, the last time we worked together in person in Orange County, 2019. Right. Yeah. And so, you know, my approach has been, you know, and the title of that was, it’s always EMDR, right. And so one of my, one of my passions, is having this conversation about the language that we use around EMDR therapy, and very, very popular languages, we’re not doing EMDR today, we’re going to do something else, right, which really the the real meaning there is, we’re not going to do reprocessing today. That’s what people mean when they say that. And so when I’m doing EMDR, therapy, which it’s all I do, right, and so I’m always in one of the phases, right, no matter what I’m doing, I’m gonna one of the phases and when folks come into treatment centers in my private practice, but the treatment centers that I work with, the folks have been trained to see the person as entering the door in phase one and phase two, right of EMDR therapy. And so that then informs, you know, the the treatment planning informs the discharge planning and informs, you know, the way we look at how many sessions do we have left informs the entire milieu an entire it informs how it is that I view the groups that they’re in, right, all the groups that are in our resources, the milieu is a resource, the relationships that they have with their fellow clients, or resources, the containment and the safety of the treatment center is a resource, right? So it’s all phase two all the time, right. And it’s all phase one, you know, if we’re looking at the treatment planning, through this, you know, AIP model lens, MSA phase protocol lens, it’s a wonderful structured, but not rigid way to bring a person through their recovery. And this all came from, you know, in terms of the both the burnout and just also sort of the low success rates that I saw some of the places, you know, that folks were not sort of getting a good sense of where they were going, right, like a treatment center, everyone who walks into any treatment center, they’re going to get a history, and they’re going to stabilize, and they’re going to prepare them, right, like what you do in phase one and phase two, but for what you know, sometimes it’s a little vague, some it’s a sober life, or whatever it is. And so since everyone’s doing that, why don’t we give them the eight phase protocol AIP model pathway of were going towards our trauma recovery, and in that trauma recovery, our addiction recovery will be successful. So so that’s the value that you know, I mean, one of the many values add ons and remembering to that, like, I’ve been doing my entire addiction treatment career using EMDR therapy is like the central thing. So I don’t know, the other, you know, like, where I do know the other ways, but but in any case, like I have found tremendous value in that. And the folks that have sort of taken this approach are reporting back, you know, that they’re, they’re getting wonderful things out of it, too. So I think that the other thing in a more general sense is that the growth of EMDR therapy and the addiction and recovery world, which is you know, it’s been a sort of a slow growth, and now I think it’s getting much more traction is really, really been helpful in the dialogue and the advocacy for this trauma informed and now really trauma focused approach to addiction. So absolutely,

Kim Howard 14:32
I mean, I think we can all think people like Prince Harry and Sandra Bullock, and you know, all of these other famous people who are coming out and saying, You know what, I go to therapy, and this is the method that works for me. And so that’s, that’s good. Number one that they’re talking about openly about mental health, because that’s part of who you are, right? It’s, you’ve got your physical health and you’ve got your mental health and your psychological health matters. And so it’s good that they’re mentioning that and it’s great for emdria in terms of people seeking EMDR therapy and And or therapists are wanting to add that to their practice. And so it’s it if it helps people recover and live the life that they want. That’s wonderful news for everybody involved, you know, whether it’s the client or the therapist or people who are surrounding the family of the client and friends and that kind of thing. So it’s, it’s a great, it’s a great therapy to have any use. So grateful to Francine Shapiro.

Stephen Dansiger 15:21
Oh, my goodness, one of my favorite three psychologists in history. And to your point, also, the integration of the other thought leaders that are out there who are not necessarily EMDR therapists themselves. But one of the last live talks I saw before the pandemic was Bessel van der Kolk. And, you know, he’s he he’s in he’s doing a lot of psychedelic research right now and all that, but he always added the EMDR subject always comes up, and he brings it up. But this, there was a question from from the audience, someone said, Should I get trained in EMDR therapy? And he said, If you want your patients to get better, yeah, yeah. So he’s still, you know, still on the team, as it were. And so it spreads out and spreads out further, you know, for monta and other people who are talking about the relationship between trauma and addiction. And EMDR can help bolster that conversation and also be a central healing tool.

Kim Howard 16:15
Yeah, when I interviewed Julie Miller the September podcast, she talked a lot about how she comes from a little bit of a different approach, and some therapists but she said, you know, you have to treat the trauma before you can, you can’t wait for the person to be completely sober to treat the trauma, because they’re, they have an addiction because of the trauma. And so you have to treat them sort of together, you know, and she said, the old protocol, the old process used to be like, Oh, you have to be sober for a year before we can do any kind of, you know, therapy, and then it was six months, and then it was 30 days. And she said, You know, it’s it’s they’re hurting, and you can’t help them heal if you don’t first deal with that trauma. So I thought that was a good, a good way for us to think about that for people who are struggling with addictions. And so they’re coming from a place of hurt, which is why they’re living that way. And so how do we fix that hurt? And then get them sober? So I thought that was interesting. So thank you, but you are open about your sobriety. How has your addiction struggle made you a better EMDR? Therapist?

Stephen Dansiger 17:11
I’ll say this first, that I’m not one of those folks who thinks that might be obvious as someone who’s doing EMDR therapy and working with a wide variety of clients coming from a wide variety of directions, and using all kinds of different recovery pro programs and paths and tools. But I’m not one of those people who thinks, you know, only the people with lived experience can but I do believe I can do the work but I am of the belief or personal to me is that it has really, really helped me to come to where I am now. And I and I can do that. I do that in hindsight. And I also do that in the fact that I am someone who sees my recovery as a daily process and a daily renewal. And so you know, I wake up and I might have want to, you know, depending on the day, especially the last couple of years, sometimes I wake up and I go what, really, this is what we’re doing. And I start you know, screwing in the screws with some meditations and prayers, and this and that. And, and then and then off we go. So yeah, so recovery. First of all, my lived experience of you know, my difficulties really helps me I think in a lot of departments, including the compassion department, you know, you know, I never see anyone across from me as as you know, less than I’m not saying that anyone would. First off, but I think that’s part of it is I can see oh, yeah, I get it. I know why you’re hurting in this way. And I think it’s also helped me. You know, I’m very fortunate, you know, the last two years of my drinking was was like a tapering, you know, and not not like I’m on a taper, but you know, it was more like, I landed in an emergency room with alcoholic gastritis for the third time. And I was face to face with a doctor who when he walked into the office, and I was with my mom, because I had the attack while my mom while visiting my parents, and he looked at me, and I saw that look in his eye. You know, he knew exactly what I was up to. And I was and I was found out as it were, and, and so he asked me, it’s like, Do you drink my beer too now? And then he turned to my mom hoping right? And that was I didn’t I tried to kind of keep it down low around my parents, you know, I didn’t want to bother them. So she’s like, Yeah, thank you a beer now and then probably and he said, Well, his livers enlarged. And you know, so I don’t have any explanations other and possibly that’s so so good luck. You know, and

Kim Howard 19:41
Great doc, thanks.

Stephen Dansiger 19:44
Had another experience when I you know, I was I drank my way out at the University of Pennsylvania, the beginning of my junior year undergrad, and I was really young. I left for college when I was 16. So I was still like 18 years old and I left through the through the University Hospital and all I remember whereas the psychiatrists saying is 1981 And I remember the psychiatrist saying something along the lines of I’m sending you home to your dad, and he can figure you out. Like that was that was the treatment. So we’ve come a long way. And and I guess, you know, those experiences like I don’t harbor ill will towards those folks are certainly especially not the ER doc, you know, he’s just doing his job and did it well, you know, the findings. But, you know, I’m very passionate about, like, I want people to get the best treatment possible, whatever that looks like. And, and so that’s another thing from the lived experiences, like, I guess maybe that’s a little bit more of the compassion and sort of just the need. Some of that comes also from my mindfulness practice, particularly my Buddhist practice, where, you know, compassionate care is like a huge part, you know, in treating people or coming to situations, as a therapist or otherwise, in the spirit of loving kindness that, you know, these things come from my experiences as a recovering person, you know, I’ve been led to all these different pathways. So I feel like you know, different people treat this differently. So I’ve been open about my sobriety, because I feel solid enough in it. It’s been 33 years now I feel solid enough in it, that pretty sure I’m not going off the rails, like I made it through the pandemic so far. Right. And a lot of people did it people I know, people who had my length of recovery, who, you know, this was That was last straw kind of thing. Oh, that’s so bad. It’s, it’s, it’s the worst. And so so. So anyway, so my going saying, hey, you know, I’m in recovery has brought many people to my therapy office, oh, you’re the you’re the guy who knows that part. Right. And it also has been something that I’m able to use in service of, of clients, even in the EMDR therapy context.

Kim Howard 21:54
That’s great. That’s great. So are there any myths that you would like to bust about EMDR Therapy in relation to addictions and recovery?

Stephen Dansiger 22:02
Can we do like a second podcast together? So I don’t have time to go over your top 10 list.

Kim Howard 22:08
Maybe you could write for the magazine or the blog?

Stephen Dansiger 22:11
Yeah, blog will bust the myths. So actually, you were talking, I can’t remember which of the two folks was a Julie Miller, you’re saying we’re just talking about you can’t wait. So number one, there was there was a podcast and it was like two people like in the recovery world who are well known in the recovery world, they were having a conversation, and one of them said to the other, when can you start doing EMDR therapy with a with a with a client and the other person said nine months? Like some made up number, right, like, everybody’s different, all of that. So that I mean, the major math is what Julie talks about, which is, you know, that you have to wait, I mean, what are we waiting for, and that also implies that we’re not really taking a good look at phases, one, two, and eight of EMDR therapy as a place for us to truly learn, you know, the complexity of, you know, a person with addiction and, and the complexity of their trauma, as in, you know, comorbid, complex PTSD, and all that goes with that, and all the other, you know, aspects of what we put in the bucket of addiction, you know, the symptomatology, you know, symptoms of addiction and the way it plays out. So it implies that we’re not looking at the whole picture and taking the time to look at the whole picture. So so just to give an example, that when I set up met a protocol, which is mindfulness and EMDR treatment template, originally for addictions now it’s for agencies, but when I set up that system in first center that I did it people were coming in, and so the philosophy is everyone gets phase one and two, and seven and eight, right? Not everybody will get to the reprocessing, let’s say if it’s a 30 day stay, that’s, you know, what, why would I rush that if it’s not clinically sound, right? Alright, so some folks there, they’re not ready, but what we are ready to do is create a discharge plan that continues their EMDR journey right and so then we had folks who had present with you know, for 30 day treatment and did their reprocessing and left and stayed sober and lost their PTSD diagnosis and right so, the one of the myths is that addiction and recovery is like this one size fits all oh look, they are detoxing physically, therefore, they are this this this, right, they may be just detoxing physically like that. One example I was just talking about, which is actually in I can’t believe I haven’t mentioned Jamie yet. So Jamie marriage and I written a number of books together. Most recent one is healing addiction with EMDR therapy. So this example is in the book where this person, you know, had some decent amount of recovery and then his parents passed away one after the other, and it brought up this trauma, old trauma that sent him back to his substances. And so he arrived at the treatment center in a state Right. But he also when we did the due diligence, right, we did the intake and were and we’re doing it from this framework of phase one, phase two, right, he revealed that he had like a 20 year long mindfulness practice, he revealed that the most recent relapse was a couple of months long, right. So he wasn’t as sort of removed from his resources and resourcing and self awareness around what he could do to take care of himself in order to do reprocessing. And he said, you know, and again, so, it’s anecdotal. You know, he said, and I know that it was my parents passed away. And that was it. And here’s the here are the two major traumas that came back up, and he had never received EMDR treatment before. So in that 30 day stay, we were able to, you know, just describe some of the phase one or phase two work, establish that he was resourced enough and, and the resources of the treatment center provided the extra containment and resource to be able to go and deliver the full, you know, the eight phases, right, and he left and remains in recovery, you know, as far as I know, able to catch up with each other years later. And so, so that’s the first myth that you know, you have to wait a certain amount of time, or that you can’t approach in addiction and recovery from soup to nuts, like from the beginning to the end from the AIP model. And, and the eight phase protocol. Another way that I was taught to bust that myth was that you were talking about divine intervention and things that are meant to be so Dr. Leeds gave me the training, and then AJ pop key lived about 15 minutes away from the treatment center. So Andrew was like, I gotta introduce you to AJ. So I got mentored by Andrew leads, and AJ for a solid year, wow, in the beginning, Great mentors. Fantastic. Yes. And AJ, you know, we come up like every other week, you know, and we’d sit and we talk, and we, you know, sort of just go over things. And both of them were very, Oh, of course, you can use this with addiction, of course, you can. And here’s the way I, you know, and they both had their different ideas about, you know, what that meant in the context of eviction. And so, you know, for myself, I was able to bust the myth that I can’t do this, or that it can’t be the primary therapy. So you know, it’s really taking EMDR therapy out of that, I get a lot of out of that adjunctive kind of setting, that a lot of treatment centers, you know, that are trying to bring EMDR therapy into the mix. It’ll be someone who’s you know, contracted in, oh, they have a trauma, let’s give them to the you know, they’re, they’re not in the treatment, team meetings, etc. So that’s, I think that’s the biggest one, and then from that, all the other myths can get busted. And then the, I don’t know if this is so much a myth, as it is a mis misunderstanding is that or maybe it’s just not as well now or thought about this way. But as far as I’m concerned, the eight phase protocol and EMDR therapy standard protocol, and AIP model is one of the most inclusive structures I’ve ever found. And what I found, the reason why I work, the way that I do is that when I treat someone coming into my care right away as being in phase one, and two, and I start seeing the pathway in that direction for for the client, I have a sense of I can do with every other modality, every other intervention that’s outside, traditionally, what we think of as EMDR therapy fits somewhere in to the face protocol fits into the AIP model. Right, so much like folks are trying to let’s say run a 12-step center, it’s like oh, and we have EMDR. And it kind of fits this way with the FS protocol, the ARP model, my DBT group, Mindfulness Based relapse prevention, the you know, the equine therapy, you know, whatever it is, it fits, usually somewhere in the phases one, two, and a three through seven, Jamie and I didn’t know whether our publisher would allow for this title for the chapter. But they did. And phase three through sixes was Dr. Shapiro’s special sauce, right.

Kim Howard 28:54
I like it.

Stephen Dansiger 28:57
[Phases] 1,2,7 and eight is whatever you bring to it. Right? And you know, I know different EMDR training orgs have different ways of approaching phase one have different ideas about what phase two means. You know, our team Jamie and the Institute for Creative mindfulness, we really focus on thematic and this really works well with addictions, by the way is a thematic history taking chronology is not considered as important at all. And then what because chronology is often not available to folks who’ve been through substance use issues or behavioral addictions and or complex PTSD, childhood trauma, so many of the folks that come in for addiction treatment, really bad childhood trauma. So you know, so these are the issues that we’re dealing with and in the thematic history taking that that then allows the client to truly lead the treatment, right? They become a collaborator and they are able to go where they are able to go and I don’t need to you know, EMDR therapy, I don’t need to hear their whole story to help them right. You know, I say so what’s your history and if they say when I was 12 my dad was mean to me why So enough for starters, right? Right, like just write that down. And then Phase Two are, the way we train is, resources are anything and everything that is healthy and or adaptive for the client in front of you. In other words, it’s not it’s not just commonplace, it’s not lightstream it’s not it’s not visualization is like, of all the aspects of, of the origins of EMDR therapy, you know, Dr. Shapiro’s heavy on the visualization. And a lot of folks that’s not really recommended, and especially at the beginning of their journey. So that being said, you know, we’ve you open the door to anything and everything you know, and of course, we operate from a mindfulness based resources are often your best, your best possible stabilization, preparation, you know, the stabilization comes from being able to become embodied at least a little bit to be able to self soothe, you know, from I’m not just talking about sitting cross legged, silently and without moving, I’m also talking about, you know, mindfulness in movement, mindfulness and expressive arts, mindfulness, you know, in all the different ways that it can manifest. But it also, and this is something that Jaime and I wrote about also in our EMDR therapy and mindfulness book, is that, you know, we’re preparing folks to be able to be good notices, because that’s the other thing is Dr. Shapiro, you know, she got mindfulness training, this is my understanding, you know, like, I know, sometimes there’s a game of telephone,