Kim Howard 00:05
Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association or EMDRIA. I’m your host Kim Howard. This episode, we are talking with EMDR certified therapist and consultant Dr. Jason Linder, LMFT. Jason is located in San Diego, California, where he specializes in providing EMDR therapy for couples. Let’s get started. Today we’re speaking with EMDR certified therapist and EMDR consultant, Dr. Jason Linder about EMDR therapy and couples counseling. Jason is also an EMDR HAP Facilitator. Thank you, Jason, for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

Jason Linder 00:42
Thanks for having me, Kim.

Kim Howard 00:45
So, Jason, tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming an EMDR therapist.

Jason Linder 00:50
I started learning about therapy in 2011. I mean, I majored in psychology in my undergrad. But I started I started my master’s degree in 2011. And my program was focused on structural therapy, strategic therapy, solution-focused narrative therapy, which were wonderful models. I’m not criticizing them at all. And I think I was, I was learning them well, and I was doing well with clients and I, everything seemed to be going well. And then when I, my program was in Mexico, so then when I, when I moved back to California to start working as a back then it was called an MFT Intern and now it’s called an associate. But one of my first supervisors, Dr. Louisa Lucas, she had all of her her team trained in EMDR. It sounded cool. I wanted to learn more about it, we were working with a very traumatized population on undocumented immigrants. And I was I was interested in it. So during the practicums, we would just like the EMDR trainings are structured, we would practice doing EMDR on each other with grips in the manual. I wasn’t even formally trained yet. But even reading through the the MDR script, not really knowing what I was asking and why I would see these major transformations in my practice client, I was almost flabbergasted and dumbfounded, I was like, how, what’s what’s happening here, like, what is amazing about this therapy that that other therapies that I used, the ones that I learned in my master’s program weren’t getting at, and it seemed to just be a lightbulb moment. Around that time, too. I got some EMDR therapy as a client on my some personal trauma about having acne, stuttering, a lot being teased. And it also cleared that out a lot. Now I can talk about those things with little emotional activation. So I just had to focus a lot of my career around it since 2013, when I started learning about EMDR. So here we are, 10 years later.

Kim Howard 02:38
That’s awesome. That’s an awesome story. And we hear that a lot from our podcast guests about how somebody has introduced it to them. They also have lightbulb moments where they’re like, Wow, this is such an awesome therapy. And I believe I should add this to my practice, because I believe it will help my clients heal. And that really is the ultimate goal, I would hope of any therapist who’s out there. So thank you for sharing that. Jason, what is your favorite part of working with EMDR and couples?

Jason Linder 03:06
I love that it can it can help foster changes and connection and understanding and empathy and compassion in ways that individual EMDR wouldn’t usually just because it’s client and therapist in the room only and, you know, the EMDR community, there’s a lot of experimentation years with group protocols and family couple protocols since since the early 2000s. Shapiro [Francine] was writing about the importance of using all the wisdom in psychotherapy towards you know, making towards turning in dr into into a powerhouse. And that would that would mean extracting, and applying some of the wisdom of couples therapy. And, you know, the worst part of traumas or the relational elements, every trauma has a relational elements. So if we include the most salient relationships, he would make sense that it would help. It would catalyze healing in ways that aren’t possible otherwise, like healing a memory networks leads to secure relationships, insecure relationships also lead to healing memory, memory networks also. So it’s like, why not use assets, resources and lubricants that can make the couple therapy work better? So it’s just riskier and in some ways, and it’s complex, but why not use all the tools that we have at our disposal to create change? And often a couple of our clients as partners are often vital resources that I think not enough therapists are using.

Kim Howard 04:42
So, that’s great point; that’s great point because who, who knows you better than your family or your spouse, right, your partner? I don’t think any of us realize how important our family relationships are until we get into some sort of serious adult relationship with someone else.

Jason Linder 05:03
Exactly. And all of those things that happen as a child growing up or as a teenager, whether they were positive things, or negative things, you know, you don’t realize that will bubble to the surface until you’re in this relationship with somebody. And you’re like, ‘Oh, this is what my parents did, or this is how this happened in my home. And now it’s, you know, happening again in my relationship, and this my new home,’ and you may or may not want that that to happen. And so depends on whether it’s, I guess, positive or negative, I don’t think any of us realize that growing up. And so it’s good that as a couple, somebody would come to a therapist and say, Hey, we have issues, and that you’re dealing with those past issues, whoever the person is, or if there isn’t both of the people in the therapists office so that that they can press forward with their current relationship and come to some sort of positive resolution, right? Because if you don’t address those issues, if you don’t recognize what trauma has happened in your past, with your family, you can’t really press forward as a couple. All partners bring in a lot of baggage from the past some some positive, some neutral, some trauma base, it plays out in the couple’s dynamic, so why not get to the root of it with which is what EMDR is, I think great at. So that’s I mean, that’s a very brief answer. It is important though, that using EMDR in a couple of context, I think of it as like investing in a new startup company where the higher reward but also higher risk, because if the relationship isn’t safe, things can easily go poorly. And there’s even like the best integrative therapist, even if they do good psycho education, they plan it with the the couple things can still happen, that aren’t ideal or therapeutic. And then the therapist is kind of stuck repairing what happened with the EMDR integration work. On the flip side, though, it can be one of the most powerful empathy builders and connection drivers that can really, in some ways be like normal couples therapy on steroids. So higher risk, higher reward, even though it’s complex, and there’s still a lot of needed research. I think mine was only one of three dissertations in total that focused on on using EMDR when couples and I think there are still less than 25 total books and articles on the topic, maybe which is very, very scant.

Kim Howard 07:22
Yeah, that is scant.You’re right. So that’s a good segue to talk about what successes you’ve seen using EMDR therapy with couples.

Jason Linder 07:30
Yeah, I’ve seen integrating EMDR whether it’s conjoined with with the partner witnessing or using individually, where the same therapist does a few limited sessions with each partner, and then returns back to the couples therapy, the couples therapists release still has to be focused on the dynamic as their main client, if you will, not either partner. I’ve seen integrating EMDR at least in my own practice and and talking to some of my participants from my dissertation be able to resolve blocks in couples therapy that hadn’t worked within in previous rounds of couples therapy that were more present oriented. As I said, before, traumas, usually a relational event, the disturbing nature of of memories targeted in EMDR often have betrayal, abandonment, neglect, like I said, so with couples, it can really help to target previous memories of attachment salience, with with ruptures with previous partners, with parent with siblings, because the traumatic events that we would target using EMDR and the AIP model align with the the attachment events that happen in the couple’s cycle and get triggered that are fueling the the negative pattern. So integrating EMDR resolve the blocks in couples therapy, that kind of present focused couples therapy wouldn’t be addressing in a couple of the most heated problematic moments where they’re just furious at each other, they’re hurt, they feel abandoned, rejected, they feel defensive. Those moments usually have trauma roots. So if if a therapist is is able to pause in the couple reactivity and float back to an earlier memory from when they were a child when the stakes were a lot higher when they depended on that caregiver for their basic needs when they didn’t have confidence developed yet resources self agency and it’s it’s just it’s such a big lightning moment to realize that here I am thinking that my partner’s treating me like I’m not good enough. Like I’m a bad person, like I’m a failure and then you you realize it’s the same feeling that you used to get when your father was abrading you from his from his own alcoholism and then it’s a double win because the criticize partner realizes that it’s actually it’s not about me being not good enough. It’s the unresolved trauma from when I was little and then the the other partner It’s a win for them too, because they realize that the reactivity is not personal trauma is relational. So why not heal it relationally?

Kim Howard 10:07
That’s a good point. That’s a good point, you can’t, you can’t really press forward until you heal what has happened in your past. And I don’t, like I said earlier, I don’t think you realize all of those things happening and how it will impact your relationships until you’re in the relationship and then things aren’t working. And then you don’t really blame it on your past. You blame it on your partner, right? And then you get into some therapy, and you’re like, oh, this really isn’t my partner. This really is my history and my family issues and my trauma. So it’s good for us to remember.

Jason Linder 10:40
Yeah, and like my trauma, ping pong with my partner’s trauma, and then both of our traumas creating this kind of very toxic negative cycle that has roots in the past.

Kim Howard 10:52
It’s a good way to put it: roots in the past. Are there any myths that you would like to bust about EMDR therapy and couples counseling?

Jason Linder 10:59
I think a lot of therapists get very rigid about, you know, you can’t mix them. And it can be very messy, which is true. I think a lot of therapist fears get overblown, there are risks to it. And it has to be done very carefully with a lot of planning. And even if you do it with a lot of planning, it doesn’t guarantee that it is going to go perfectly. But I think that one of the myths is that you know, it can’t be done, it’s going to only make it worse, if you look back at and like Shapiro had three major iterations of her main amgr textbook that’s still recommended in readings for the EMDR trainings. And she was versed, she was first very, very cautious about using EMDR in a couple of contexts. But then, once you got to her second, and her third iterations, I think she was more positive and more open to it. So there are risks, there are rewards. But I think it’s worth exploring, because trauma impacts partners together. The attachment needs to have a have a couple though, I think one of the one myth would be that like the same therapist, could the individual therapist for each partner and the couple therapists that that’s possible. Sometimes most therapists in my dissertation didn’t want to do it like that. And there are a lot of good, a lot of well known couple therapists in the space like Dan tag, Ken, who would caution against us doing both individual and couple therapy with both partners because of the competing loyalties. Confidentiality is not locked in. Like, it’s like you’re almost treating three clients at once.

Kim Howard 12:32
What successes have you seen using EMDR therapy with couples?

Jason Linder 12:36
I’ve often seen moments in my own practice where, you know, I’ve gotten a couple that has tried a couple therapy on and off for years with like, three, four or five different therapists and not that I’m the best couple therapists but I think, because I use EMDR, and I sometimes integrate it with certain couples, I think it can help resolve blocks in the therapy that that were based in the past that therapist weren’t getting at because couples therapy as it’s usually a practice is very present focus what’s happening now and and what her partner’s saying and doing to each other that isn’t working. And when you go back and you find the traumatic memories that are fueling their distress, and you float back and you reprocess those memories, it can make all the difference, it can be the missing puzzle piece for for many couples.

Kim Howard 13:27
That’s a great answer. It’s a good way to put it. Are there any myths that you would like to bust about EMDR therapy and couples counseling?

Jason Linder 13:34
I think one of the myths is that like, therapists need to be playing all three roles, like they have to be the couples, couples therapist, and then each partner’s individual therapist and a good couple of therapists who’s integrating EMDR is actually keeping the focus on the couple dynamic and is only doing sporadic, infrequent, EMDR with each partner to the degree that it helps their couple dynamic become less problematic, less conflictual, more trust, more safety, more compassion, more connection, more secure attachment.

Kim Howard 14:10
Yeah, so one of the myths would not be how do I get my, my spouse or my partner to admit that he or she is wrong? That’s not that doesn’t happen in couples therapy, right? Is that what I was, I would imagine, as somebody who’s not been a couple of therapy, that a couple would come in and they would want the therapist to point fingers at the other partner in the room and say, yes, you’re wrong about this, and this person was right. So I would presume that as a myth that we want people to understand that’s not what happens in couples therapy. So…

Jason Linder 14:39
Yeah, but that is like you make good point, because that’s often how how couples come to therapy, blaming their their partners, and that’s another thing I like about EMDR because it helps deep, personalize their reactivity because it traces the sources of issues in past traumas instead of the other partner. So it’s kind of like a neutralizer it could build so much connection, empathy, clarify misunderstandings, this isn’t about blaming you and like thinking that you’re a failure and that rejecting you. But this is actually me trying to cope with my childhood trauma in a counterproductive way, for example.

Kim Howard 15:20
I would imagine it’s a relief when people get into, you know, EMDR couples therapy and realize that not only the person who’s being blamed, but the other person who’s doing the blaming, there must be some sort of relief that happens to realize that it’s not really this adult relationship, that’s, that’s necessarily wrong or traumatized. It’s the what happened in your past. And there must be some sort of sense of thank thank goodness that, you know, I didn’t pick the wrong partner, or, you know, I didn’t invest all of these years of my life with somebody who, you know, turned out to be a dud, right. And so it’s really something that happened to me or to that other person that they had no control over. Because children don’t have any control over things like that. And so that must be must be good to walk away from a session feeling like that’s been resolved somewhat. So are there any specific complexities or difficulties with using EMDR therapy for this population?

Jason Linder 16:17
Yeah, I think they’re, I think the biggest challenge is like, if you know, you’re going to use EMDR, with this couple integrating it. I think the first step is collaborating with with a couple of very, very carefully and psychoeducation, about the pros and the cons of it process, but like deciding together as a, as a three person team, like, do we do conjoint sessions where each partner watches the other partner as a supportive witness, compassionate witness? Or do we separate the partners? And does the therapist do one, two or three isolated, private, individual sessions with each partner and then come back together, there are pros and cons to each of those. And it’s kind of hard to know which one to do starting, it’s it could be a hit, or, or less, but like, I guess, the rule that my dissertation revealed, and also, my own rule, from my own practice, is if there is safety trust, and there’s each partner is able to self regulate, and is pretty differentiated, usually helpful to do conjoint sessions to really help build that sense of that empathy and appreciation and compassion for the traumas that your partner came to you to this relationship with if though, there’s a lot of, there’s not so much trust in that maybe there was an affair, major financial omission, like if there’s, if the safety is pretty low in that moment, and there’s high reactivity and the partners are very Blamey. And defensive, then I could see it more beneficial long story short to do individual sessions. A few infrequent because doing them too long could put the individual or the couple therapists in like individual therapy space, which could create competitiveness and triangulation and can just compromise the couple therapy. But I think that’s that’s the biggest choice is like, does the does the couple therapists do conjoint sessions or individual if they are conjoint therapists has to prepare the the observing partner very carefully to be quiet during the whole process, because we have to trust that their reactivity and their thoughts, feelings are not going to intrude on the reprocessing partners experience, which is never a guarantee, even if you set it up very, very well. You also can help. So another complexity, right is that, let’s say that you decide that you do that you’re going to do conjoint EMDR, and you set up partners and everything’s prepared. But what if, during the reprocessing, the reprocessing partner doesn’t want their partner to hear what’s coming up for them in between sets. So you could do blind to a therapist EMDR pretty much works the same even if the reprocessing partner doesn’t say everything that they would have said because the the reprocessing is still happening. So you can use that B to Te protocol blind to therapist protocol that I think was coined by the EMDR Europe team, Derek Farrell 10 years ago when they were doing EMDR with with I think a genocided community in Iran, but I think that’s the the main answer even even still to because of these complexities. At least most integrative therapists aren’t doing that much about 25 percent of the time because the complexities, there’s no surefire way that it’s going to work but but I can also see that it often is worth the risk. As long as you’re psycho educating, collaborating, there’s and you do individual assessment with each partner raise the odds of success.

Kim Howard 19:54
That’s a great answer. So how do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR therapist?

Jason Linder 20:00
I think about this a lot. I tried to be a very social justice oriented therapist and I I really loved EMDRIA’s consultant day where Dr. Norma Day Vines talked about as, I think constantly looking at issues of power, and addressing a couple’s contextual reality, their nationality, language, race, ethnicity, ability, gender identity, sexual orientation, size, height, among others. So having a lot of attention to a power and social location, I think is really important. I think the fact that there are so many EMDR spaces where trainings don’t speak to this much is a big problem. I think in the couples therapy standpoint, I think it’s really important that we aren’t neutral when there are power imbalances between partners, because like if you have, if one partner has a power of an elephant, the other partner has the power of a mouse, your neutrality is siding with the more powerful partner fueling the status quo, potentially making things worse. So I also try to be very careful with the term normal. Normal, I think, if goes back to years ago, when eugenicists used it to, to have domination over the less powerful. I’m very careful with the term normal because it imposes the dominant view on those that are dis dissident in franchise and being a white male, I asked about it a lot. I also try not to use terms that really beat to the imbalances, like instead of Dr. Day Vines, talked about this on consultant day using the term minoritized instead of minority enslaved instead of slaves unhoused instead of homeless using language that reflects the power dynamics and the systemic injustices that are fueling what our clients going through, I also have a bone to pick with the term cultural competence, which is used a lot in an academic spaces. Competence implies that we gain mastery over others. And we use that potentially to control them that we’ve we’ve gotten there. And we’ve done enough, where’s humility, which I appreciate the term that you’re using in the interview and that EMDRIA prefers a much not knowing stance, open ended, curious and just being constantly aware of the own power, my own power as a as a white male in the rooms.

Kim Howard 22:32
That’s a great answer. And just to be transparent. When we first started this podcast, I feel like somewhere along the line, we did substitute, we did swap out the word humility, because we had competence in there before. And somebody pointed it out to me a couple of podcasts, and I can’t remember when and I was like, ‘Oh, I better change that.’ You know. So it’s good for people to be open about what other people are saying to them. And not correcting because correcting is really not the proper term. Because I wouldn’t want people to always feel like they’re wrong about something. But how somebody is saying, ‘Hey, this, this is how you really should phrase something instead of what you’re saying. Now, it should be phrased this way.’ And so just to make people aware, I think aware is the better term. And so thank goodness that there are people out there who will step up and say something, because otherwise people like me are just going to run around and not be aware, right? Until somebody says something. So yeah.

Jason Linder 23:28
Exactly. Because we want to use language that is affirming, empowering and supportive, those that are disenfranchised, marginalized. So yeah, absolutely. Come back to the complexities. If you decide this was like I was just in the back of my head, if you decided to do individual EMDR instead of conjoined because you, you realize that there isn’t enough safety trust to do it to do the EMDR with a partner watching that also can have its its cons, because it denies the couple opportunities for bonding, empathy, and the witnessing partner to be able to comfort and understand their their partner’s internal process more deeply that fuels the very conflict that they’re going to couple therapy to work on. And can also slow down and muddle the process if you bring in another professional into the scene when you can really do it all in the same house.

Kim Howard 24:24
Jason, do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource that you would suggest either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

Jason Linder 24:31
Yeah, I mean, I’ve heard pretty much all of your interviews Kim and I’ve enjoyed them all. One of my favorites was with Jamie Marich. She has been such a good resource for the EMDR community. She has a lot of demonstrations of pretty much every EMDR protocol. I don’t think she works with couples so not couples, which I have withdrawal lists and other ones for but she has free examples of most EMDR protocols that are on her YouTube channel. They’re just wonderful demonstrations of all the different protocols. I also sent, Kim, for the podcasts shownotes some of my articles that are based on my dissertation about using EMDR with couples especially emotionally-focused couples therapy, even though a lot of it will apply even if you don’t practice emotionally-focused couples therapy, I’m going to make all those articles free and accessible to the public. I also think a really good couple resort or is it okay if it’s a non-EMDR resource cecause it’s couples or should I not?

Kim Howard 25:30
Yeah, no, you can list it will list it, hey, more resources are better.

Jason Linder 25:34
Yep. A really good couple podcast that just has amazing EFT supervisors and trainers is called ‘Foreplay Radio.’ It’s about couples and sex and whether you’re interested in the sexual part, they just have a wonderful rapport and they teach you so much about what healthy relationships are and like how to improve your relationship and feeling bad. Think about it. There are a lot of ads on the podcast. So just skip through those if they bother you. But these are therapists that aren’t EMDR trained, but they’re very trauma informed and incorporating their wisdom could be a very good, I guess, adjunct to your EMDR therapy.

Kim Howard 26:14
That’s great. That’s a great answer. Thanks. Thanks for those resources. What would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR couples therapy?

Jason Linder 26:23
I think it’s like no wonder the field is moving toward more relational protocols, groups, family, couples alike, in individual EMDR may be too confining, and maybe unnecessarily limited in its approach and its healing potential. So I think the more the merrier, just like you know, when you have parties, and you have gatherings, more people really make it fun out of the group. And the magic that happens in the connections, we are social creatures, bonding mammals. So if we can find ways to make EMDR, more successful, efficient, less costly, more time efficient, why not can be very, very powerful. And we’re wounded in a relationship, and we heal in relationship. I don’t know if briefly, I want to give a shout out to Jim Collins’ research. Long story short, he found that if you if you give people dramatizing stimuli, like horrifying stimuli of like, you know, graphic, ghastly images, if you have I think pretty much he had two groups of people exposed to these stimuli. And he was measuring their their vitals their muscle tension, heart rate, skin conductance, one group was alone, the other group had a loving partner with them holding their hand as they looked at the images. Which group do you think had much less reactivity in their bodies; much less fear, panic response.

Kim Howard 27:50
The people who are with somebody who’s partnered with them, that somebody who they love, I presume?

Jason Linder 27:55
Right? Are our clients partners can be such powerful resources, and we should know how to use them.

Kim Howard 28:02
Yeah, that’s a great point. You know, it happens whether you have good news or bad news in your life, right? You know, you want to share it with people, if it’s good news, you know, you want to tell your friends and you want to tell your family, and then when if there’s something tragic or something negative that happens in your life, you turn to those people as well, because quite frankly, you need to lean on them. Right, you can’t carry that whole burden yourself. And so, you know, that group thought about whether it’s family or friends, that shouldering that burden, I can see I can very much see why, why that’s really the way to go. Because he, you don’t want to carry all that by yourself, because it’s just too much for one person to handle. Right?

Jason Linder 28:41
Right. And that’s especially true if you have a positive loving relationship, it wouldn’t apply if the relationship is is very unsafe or dangerous or abusive. But to your point, I think it’s also maybe just a natural extension for me, because I’m family therapist, couple therapists tried to tried and true. So it just makes so much more sense for me to combine them in. I encourage my my colleagues to learn and experiment too, as long as it’s done carefully and methodically. And that’s one of the most important reasons why.

Kim Howard 29:15
Absolutely. So I always like this question at the end of the interview, because we get some really funny interest. If you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be?

Jason Linder 29:25
My family teases me for this a lot. I love electric cars. Not so much Elon Musk, but I love what Tesla’s doing. I love technology. I love things becoming easier to use more efficient. I used to get lost everywhere I went and then like the GPS in my car like that was a big game.

Kim Howard 29:42
You are my people. Jason I am directly challenged.

Jason Linder 29:47
Right? And it’s like if we can make things easier and help people I like technology technology has a dark side but I I love that if it’s used right and well it can make our lives easier, safer and health. hear if used correctly, I also like drumming. And there are other hobbies, computer coding, which I didn’t learn yet. I wish I did. Teaching Spanish even took like using coding to create mental health services and products for people that can’t access a therapist. That would have been pretty cool. But I love what I’m doing. And it’s so meaningful and enjoyable to me that it doesn’t it still doesn’t compete. Like I still love what I’m doing. And I wouldn’t change it, even though those would be options number two, for some reason I couldn’t be a therapist.

Kim Howard 30:31
Well, maybe you can do that when you retire, quote unquote, retire, right, you can, you can branch out? Well, I will say I don’t know that I consider myself an early adapter of things. But a small example is for I don’t know, probably three years I had a fit that this is before the Apple Watch came out. And I love my Fitbit. It was great, right? And then unfortunately, in both instances, the screen eventually cracked. And I had to replace it to after the second Fitbit that when that happened, the Apple Watch was out. And when the Apple Watch first came out, I was like, oh, that’s unnecessary. I just can’t believe that. That’s just ridiculous. It’s expensive. It’s I don’t know why I would get one of those. And then I asked for one for Mother’s Day. My husband bought me one. And let me tell you it was a game changer. But sometimes you just have to be a little more open to things that are seem a little strange at the beginning, but they changed your life. I mean, it’s a it’s a great tool. It’s extremely convenient. If I don’t happen to have my phone on me in the house somewhere and somebody calls me I can quickly answer it on my watch. Tell them I’ll call them back on my phone or whatever answer the question that’s happened, you know, been asked. So yeah, it’s just a really cool tool. And certain most most of the time technology is pretty awesome. So…

Jason Linder 31:41
Especially when you can make the world safe.

Kim Howard 31:44
Is there anything else you’d like to add, Jason?

Jason Linder 31:46
Kim is amazing. EMDRIA is lucky to have her she was really patient and compassionate with me because…

Kim Howard 31:52
I will make sure my boss listens to this episode.

Jason Linder 31:56
I think that is a good idea, that would be Michael Bowers, right? Yes, I over prepared and I took too many notes. And I struggled through parts of it. And I think it’s important that like as as EMDR therapists that we’re opened with our vulnerabilities and we don’t like try to always have this facade of being perfect and poised and clear. So I’m, I’m actually even though I was flustered for parts of our interview, and actually half of it got deleted, I think it’s actually good that some of my flustered parts stay on stay on the podcast, because I want people to know that you can be an amazing therapist, professor, author, podcaster even you know, with, you know, your nervousness, your your anxiety, your mistakes. I think that you know, we’re in this together and we can we can make mistakes and be vulnerable and do good work for our communities and o