What comes to mind when you hear the phrase “expressive arts”? Sculpture? Dance? Poetry? Painting or coloring? Drumming? Storyboards? These and more are considered expressive arts in the EMDR therapist community. Listen to Marshall Lyles, LPC-S, LMFT-S, RPT-S, talk about how he implements expressive arts into his EMDR therapy practice. Find out how clients respond to integrating this approach.
- Our award-winning Go With That magazine’s Spring 2022 issue on EMDR Therapy, Integrative Therapies, and Expressive Arts
- Marshall Lyles.com
- EMDRIA Practice Resources
- EMDRIA Online EMDR Therapy Resources
- EMDRIA’s Find an EMDR Therapist Directory lists more than 14,000 EMDR therapists.
- Read or subscribe to our award-winning blog, Focal Point, an open resource on EMDR therapy.
- Follow @EMDRIA on Twitter. Connect with EMDRIA on Facebook or subscribe to our YouTube Channel.
- EMDRIA Online Membership Communities for EMDR Therapists
Musical soundtrack, Acoustic Motivation 11290, supplied royalty-free by Pixabay.
Produced by Kim Howard, CAE.
Kim Howard 00:04
Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMBR Podcast, brought to you by the EMDR International Association or EMDRIA. I am your host Kim Howard. In this episode we are talking with EMDR certified therapist and consultant Marshall Lyles about EMDR therapy and the expressive arts. Marshall is located in Cedar Park, Texas. Let’s get started. Today we are speaking with EMDR certified therapist and EMDR consultant Marshall Lyles, about EMDR therapy and expressive arts. Thank you, Marshall for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.
Marshall Lyles 00:36
Thanks, Kim, for having me. It’s always good to chat with you.
Kim Howard 00:39
Yeah, it’s great. So tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming an EMDR therapist.
Marshall Lyles 00:45
Yeah, parts of it are still a mystery to me. And even with all the reflection I’ve done, there are so many twists and turns that led to that being a part of my professional identity. I actually never, never really thought I would be a therapist at all. I studied journalism that was just going to be a writer. And that was my love. And I was editing my university newspaper and starting to interview for jobs in journalism and just made this left turn into mental health in really an unexpected way.
Kim Howard 01:26
I majored in journalism in college and worked also on the school newspaper, you probably looked at the salary range, and you were like,’ What? Are these people? I’m not working for that. That’s chump change. I gotta do something else.’ Because I mean, they just don’t make my first job out of college. I mean, God, so long time ago, I was making $7.50 an hour, you know, and but I was just happy to be employed. Right? You know?
Marshall Lyles 01:51
I don’t think I fully anticipated how hard the hours were in journalism. But I was also so young that I don’t know that any of those things yet added up to some greater meaning for me. I was exploring all these different things, and the creativity and the energy all felt exciting. As a journalism mentor of mine, who said to me about my writing sounded therapeutic and wasn’t sure I wasn’t wanting to be a therapist. So she set up for me to go meet with a friend of hers who ran an MFT program. And then everything just started moving very quickly in that direction.
Kim Howard 02:31
Wow, wow, that’s great. Well, I will tell you, you’re the first podcast guest I’ve interviewed who has come through a therapeutic background by way of journalism. So we’re, we’re happy you did it. I mean, I’m not complaining. But that is definitely a different career path.
Marshall Lyles 02:45
It really helps your EMDR skills, you know, I know haven’t yet answered how I got to EMDR. But journalism, you learn to hear things, I had an entire class and listening in the journalism department and you learn to hear things differently. And you’ll learn to formulate questions based exactly on what was said to you. And there’s a very specific skill set, and you learn to be efficient with your words. And so there are so many skills that I picked up from those studies in that work, that have directly transferred over, you know, to to my work, but my my work as my studies as a marriage and family therapist, had a lot of play in arts involved in them sandtray Especially. And so my, you know, original entry into the therapy world, you know, through journalism, was straight into doing more expressive ways of doing systemic work that that was my first stop along the way. And so all of my early jobs were in more crisis settings. I worked in the medical hospital, primarily in pediatrics, but I would get called over to rehab part or down into er, I worked in a treatment center, I worked in a children’s home and I was a contractor of her child welfare. And so I was working with lots of kids and parents are impacted by generational trauma and attachment trauma, developmental struggles, and just was being overwhelmed with how little grad school taught me about trauma. You know, I had great tools for for play in arts and clinical conceptualizations but very lacking in trauma knowledge. And so I I started exploring what were going to be some options for study that would help me become more prepared to serve these people better.
Kim Howard 04:41
And that’s how you found EMDR then?
Marshall Lyles 04:44
It was. I was a skeptic.
Kim Howard 04:48
I can see why. It sounds a little hokey pokey when you’re really that’s how it works. That sounds kind of simple. Are you sure it’s working right? But it clearly it works.
Marshall Lyles 05:00
This is one of the parts of me that my friends and family probably find a bit enigmatic is because I’m kind of laid back as a human, that I almost never believe anything that someone tells me. You really, you really got to show up, it developed some trust with me. And then I’ll accept things at face value. But I just, I hold some skepticism, but especially professionally, when I go to a training, I am thinking, gosh, the people trusting me to come back and help them and care for them. They’re vulnerable, and I don’t want to experimental people. And so something really needs to show itself to me as reliable and trustworthy. Before, I’m willing to, to work with it, and, and I just happened to work with a colleague who was doing EMDR, and she was one of the most trustworthy people have ever met. So I started believing in EMDR, because of how much I believed in her. And then when I found my way into training, it was the perfect trainer, because he did a speech about skepticism at the very beginning, is Rick Levinson. And Rick said, you know, I welcome your skepticism and, and he did a little kind of opening presentation about how how that’s going to be honored and and he hoped over time, EMDR would prove itself to all of us since like, wow, there is room for me to be here, it was still hard for me because I did mostly creative arts. And so when people started putting worksheets in front of me and asking me to read a script, it was challenging, it was, it was hard to give up, the fluidity I was used to and to go back to feeling new and robotic. And it made me feel a little panicky and unsure. But eventually I started finding, you know, enough fluency and understanding on the what the components of fidelity are, for EMDR, that I was able to find my way into doing it in my style.
Kim Howard 07:03
Got it. And if you’re a journalism major, you’re probably wanted to get out your red pen and start copy editing the scripts. I mean, like, you don’t know how many times when I’m sitting somewhere. And outside of work, my God, I’ll even try to edit the Bible, I’m looking at that saying, ‘Oh, that sentence could be so much more succinct, if we just said it this way instead.’ I mean, there, it takes a special kind of word nerd to want to edit the Bible and things that, you know, that are like the Constitution or things that you know, are sort of like stood the test of time. And you’re like, ‘Oh, just let me…I just want to fix a little bit of this.’ But so that’s, I think, a healthy dose of skepticism. And life in general is not a bad thing. But I also think that, especially in when you’re trying to heal people, whether it’s physical or mental, or emotional, being a little skeptical of some sort of treatment that you’ve never heard of before, that sounds almost too good to be true. That seems to fix people’s issues pretty efficiently. And effectively. You know, we all have, you know, if it sounds too good to be true, it is kind of thing and so like, I there’s nothing wrong with being skeptical about it.
Marshall Lyles 08:12
Yeah, I think it’s a really healthy way to exist in, you know, Rick would talk about the difference between skepticism and cynicism, in one can give way to other states of mind and the other blocks, I do think that there is a lot of benefit for us to go into, you know, reading a new book and to enjoy the book, but also read it through a lens of some criticism, just to make sure where we’re being responsible. We can feel moved by something and hopeful by something, and still, you know, be measured in the way that we move through this profession.
Kim Howard 08:51
Yeah, absolutely. So let’s talk a little bit about expressive arts. What is your favorite part of working with EMDR and expressive arts?
Marshall Lyles 09:01
I love creativity. I think a lot of people have been taught that they aren’t inherently creative. And that’s part of what limits their ability to access all the resilience that’s alive in their body. Creativity is it’s a healing agent, you know, it’s something we can partner with. And it welcomes the body in to the process as much as much as the mind. I think the the arts in general, do a really good job of allowing the whole person to be present. But whichever part of that person is comfortable taking the lead, moment to moment can rotate through and I like the flexibility that comes with that. Specific to EMDR. And especially my my population tending historically, to be more of a complex trauma crowd. No matter the chronological age of the person across from you at any given moment. They might do Up to a different age, you know, they they find their way into a different channel into a different aspect of cell, and they have an entirely different verbal ability. And that is welcomed so easily when you’re working within, you know, the creative arts, that words aren’t required in order for communication to keep going, is really a relief. And I find a lot of beauty in it. But there, there’s also something protective, inherently sensitive. And and containing just about using metaphor in the work, because I can be talking directly about myself, but that that starts to feel too threatening, and the threat is now blocking my ability to stay open enough to making new connections, then I can move back a level and talk about the metaphor again. And that distance from those parts of myself, allow me to keep working through a place of curiosity and not judgment, and allows me to maintain a sense of openness and not shut down. And then when ready, I can break that metaphor again, and come back into myself and my story. So that there, there are all these benefits that seem to work with my the people who find me but also with my own, you know, personal expression of how to be a clinician.
Kim Howard 11:22
Good answer. Thank you. What successes have you seen using EMDR therapy with expressive arts?
Marshall Lyles 11:28
Clients that are just so brave – it’s really scary, to be a client of any kind. But, you know, to come to someone knowing that maybe the worst thing that’s ever happened to you is the primary thing you’re meant to talk about the drive to that clinicians office on that first day, or taking the train and into to meet someone waiting in their lobby or clicking into that virtual room. And sitting there, that feeling is so intense, that already you know, I take a stance of just wanting to honor, the sheer amount of bravery that’s involved in someone showing up, just showing up is already a success. You know, just them saying, ‘I’m worth this,’ or even when they’re mandated of saying, I’m going to, you know, move toward this, I respect it. And I love it. And I celebrate it. And I find a lot of delight and personal benefit in getting to honor all of that courage. But the specific parts part of it, there are these moments that float through my mind of the different art forms that I primarily use of watching. Just incredible innovation. And so it’s not just the client having a moment of deep integration about their own story, but they are using the materials in some way that I would have never have imagined. It was a child who first have I worked a lot with pottery. And so part of my studio here where or I’ve worked with people lately is apart ceramic studio, and one of my little ones at one point, we had thrown a slab of clay. And that was where we were doing the bilateral stimulation. And so she was she and I were together moving fingers and eyes and figure eight forms as we drew our fingers into the slab together on either sides of it. And then she would go back to processing, you know, the trauma while making her piece and clay. And then we would get to a place of you know, going back to the bilateral and go to the slab. And she started she picked up a tool. As she started finding her way to new cognitions or even the painful cognition, she would write it in her slab. And then on the next bilateral passes, she would rub out those negative beliefs through the collateral in the clay and I was watching her incorporate the literal bilateral into the processing in a way that I had never seen before. And her shoulders were dropping and kind of being pulled back. And you could see this confidence coming as she was using her own body to watch something evaporate that she never deserved to have right to her own spirit. It was it was just phenomenal. And then that became something I started doing with many clients, you know, as as an invitation, all because a seven year old taught me how to how to do that. And I use a lot of poetry and EMDR and, and so watching and hearing someone then read a poem about their new consolidated memory. And one of my clients even ended up as part of their healing they went into a poetry night and for the first time ever did a reading that got up in front of a group of people. And of course, no one in the room knew that they had written this as a result, the culmination of several weeks of working on one memory through EMDR. But they knew the report they gave me at that next session about the way it felt to now say, not only can I talk about a version of this in a way that feels empowered and complete, but I can now start challenging and inspiring other people, you know, have a waist artistically look at aspects of themselves that don’t have to stay wounded. And so they started spreading, you know, healing into their community in their own way. Those are the things that just continued to baffle me about how, how amazing our clients are and how we can trust, like I said, at the beginning and creativity to partner with them to go deeper into the work than I might have dreamed.
Kim Howard 16:06
So when you talk about poetry, does the client typically write poems? Or do you start off reading other poetry that other people have written? And then formulate something from there? How does that what does that typically look like, ror our listeners out there? Who EMDR therapists who may be thinking about including expressive arts? And they’re like, whoa, what do you mean poetry? Are we talking about drawing? Are we talking about drumming? Are we talking about music, and you’re talking about how poetry that’s, that’s another area to consider. So, tell us a little bit about that.
Marshall Lyles 16:37
Well, and also, all of those other things you named are beautiful, and an exciting to do, you know, with the world of poetry therapy, I was, I was trained in an approach called poetic medicine. So it can be all of the things that you need, it could be bringing in other people’s poems, you know, so when I’m doing intakes with people, I’m not just getting clinical background as to what happened to you. And then I’m also exploring, you know, what arts have given you live, you know, do you have favorite poems, those are things that are coming, because they’re potentially speaking resources, you know, some poems basically end up describing their safe place. And so some poems, they identify, just like what we do a song lyrics, you know, this tells my story in a way that I never knew someone else went through. And so it could be existing plans that are part of their personal anthologies that could go either direction, and we can use to partner with this point later, could be we’re doing collaborative poem making, could be that we do a sandtray in the poem comes from there. Or it could be that we’re writing the poem as they do the EMDR. Because the way that I think about it is, so much of the way that people are, are asked to give us information back through EMDR is in these condensed, highly sensory phrases. They’re not going on long narratives, they’re giving us very compact statements. You know, that’s what a poem is. A poem is just a series of condensed, sensory rich words. So there, rather than whether or not we write it all down, that EMDR session is a long polling. And so you may you may write that down, or you may just start learning, I’m going to reflect back the exact rhythm of poetry you’re given me and so it can go any of a number of ways, but I do have a theory that’s not at all founded at anything. Real. Francine Shapiro was studying poetry before she ever became a psychologist. I’m pretty certain that her dissertation when she was studying literature was in the poetry of Thomas Hardy, and I did some looking into it. And I ended up getting a book I found at a news bookstore online, that from her university library that I think it’s her she edited this book for her project on Thomas Hardy poetry, and I’ve read her forward and I really think that her poetry mind was a part of her EMDR creation. And of course, I never got to know her personally, and I would have loved to have been able to ask her those questions. But, you know, once once poetry is a part of you, I think it influences everything. So I just kind of part of me wonders if all of us would be better EMDR therapist if we read poetry and our off time, and we got more comfortable with condensed, sensory rich language and holding ambiguity and multiple meanings of one phrase, those are all the things that we’re trying to do in session and so outside of even what you can do with a client using poetry. I think it’s a way to sharpen the parts of our spirit that want to be EMDR healers. Let’s just live closer to poetry.
Kim Howard 20:00
That’s fascinating. No one’s ever said that on this podcast. I mean, you’re the first guest, we’ve had to talk about expressive arts anyway. But that’s a great a great thing for our audience members to think about whether they’re therapists, currently EMDR therapists or people seeking therapy, a little more poetry in our lives is probably good for our souls as well. So great advice. Thank you. Are there any myths that you would like to bust about using expressive arts in EMDR therapy?
Marshall Lyles 20:31
Kim Howard 20:32
That there are many, one of them being you don’t have to color inside the lines. Please tell me that that is stopped after grade school.
Marshall Lyles 20:40
You do not have to be artistic in any way. I personally think everyone is artistic. And for most of us, if there’s an art form that we’re afraid of, or think we don’t like, what’s really true in the AIP-EMDR sense, there’s a person who has entered into your memory of thinking about that thing. And it’s really an unresolved memory that’s preventing you from, you know, being at peace with that thing. And so for poetry as an example, if we’ve stuck with that, it’s often some kind of teacher that may be taught you that you weren’t good at something, or if it’s art, you know, it’s, I was eight, when I first realized that some people naturally knew how to draw. And so I stopped letting it be fun when I started thinking about ability instead of expression. And so though, those kinds of things, we don’t have to feel skilled at something in order for it to be therapeutic, is one of the first things you know, for, for all of our therapists to know, because therapists often want to explore anything they don’t think they can be good at. It’s one of the things that we do. The other thing is just knowing that bringing the arts into EMDR, it’s good for clients of all ages. You know, I think sometimes we think about it specifically for kids. But it’s good for all age brains, because it really welcomes in low brain and upper brain and right brain and left brain and it’s, it’s set to naturally integrating process that it’s, it’s really helpful. And the other thing for therapist is, you do still need to be trained, you know, like, go, go seek out some basic, you know, sand training, or poetry training, or, you know, whatever it is you’re interested in, to bring into EMDR, you don’t have to start by just trying to find a training of how do I bring this art form into EMDR, it may or may not be super available yet. But you can start by just figuring out how that art form exists in the world of therapy, and make it a part of your discipline, then time exploring, reading books, looking at videos, finding a consultant. And, you know, the number one thing is, find a clinician who works like that, and do some of your own work with them, you know, go experience being a client and that way so that you know what you’re asking of people.
Kim Howard 23:03
Great advice. Thank you. My joke in my house is that if you see anything remotely creative, I’ve either purchased it or someone else has made it. I’m still working on those baby books, and my kids are 25 and 22. Right.
Marshall Lyles 23:18
Come to Austin. I’ll help you knock those out. We’ll have a good time.
Kim Howard 23:23
Are there any complexities or difficulties with using expressive arts in EMDR therapy?
Marshall Lyles 23:29
Yeah, I think so. One is, I mean, not It’s not dramatic, necessarily, but it often can feel dramatically different to, to bring the arts into EMDR from how you learn to do EMDR and basic training. So it’s for some people, they feel like they’re starting completely over, you know, I was taught to do this a little more formulaic, you know, with a script in front of me. And now over here, there’s this fluidity and unpredictability. And so that that can that’s, that’s something you have to navigate, and it is a lot of extra work to get there. Also, I think when you start bringing some of the arts into the EMDR, the process moves at a different speed and rhythm than it does when you’re doing a talk version of it. You know, a top version, we drop in pretty quick, you know, some of those opening questions really initiate the process fast. With using an art, there’s more setup, it goes slower at the beginning a lot of times, but my experience is once the rhythm gets going, they actually can move through the content a little more efficiently. And I think lots of parts of them have become involved in all of that setup, and peace but it moves at a different speed. But probably the most stressful and complex part for a lot of EMDR clinicians when they start bringing in the arts is how ambiguous it is. You live with a lot more not knowing about, you know what something is what it means. I think that that’s good. I think ambiguity is good because I think a lot of times when we think we understand something, we’re actually in trouble. And we it’s some false security and thinking that someone spoke a word. And I know exactly what that means, can be a little dangerous at times. But I also know that tolerating ambiguity is asking a lot of a clinician, who’s sitting in front of a very wounded person, who’s hoping beyond every hope that the person that they’re telling the story to is certain about what to do. And so they’re wishing for certainty. And we’re encouraging ambiguity that can be that can be moments to navigate.
Kim Howard 25:48
Yeah, it’s a little bit of a dichotomy. I interviewed a podcast guest recently, and we talked about how we, as a society have a tendency to to anybody who’s in a leadership role, and we can define leadership, you know, any which way but people who are in power as a position, we tend to put them on pedestals, right, they’re supposed to know, the answers are supposed to know the answers right away, they’re supposed to help us solve our problems, quick, 123, right? And unfortunately, everybody who’s in a power of position or leadership is they’re human. And so going through a therapy process, especially you’re sitting across from somebody, as a client, or sitting across from a therapist, they’re human, they have their lives, they have issues in their lives going on, they’re not perfect. You know, they’re trying to help you solve your problem. And we hope that when you come as an EMDR client, that you have found a solution that works for you, we just need to remember that the person on the other side of the meeting is is trying to help perfect or not, they’re going to help hopefully solve your issues. But just try to remember that people are not perfect.
Marshall Lyles 26:51
It is, and even as you were speaking, you know, your your language had this imagery to it, that you could see if we turn that that could be an EMDR target. You know, if this were a sand tray, for example, and right in the center, we have this leader that we’ve elevated up on a pedestal and looking at the world around them. And so it could be from the point of view of what it’s like to be isolated on the pedestal, or it could be from the point of view of someone looking up hoping you know, something of that elevated person, and you then get to concretely explore the different things this could mean, or the ways that this could go through visual concrete means we get to play with those beautiful dynamics that reflect you know how complex humanity is.
Kim Howard 27:42
I think a lot of times the visual, I would think would help tremendously in a therapeutic setting. Because sometimes if you’re just, not just, that you’re talking about something that’s traumatic, but to see it laid out in front of you, makes it more concrete to like that your your little seven year old, you can just wash it away, or you can just scribble it away, or you can cut it out, or you can crush it and fold it back into the clay and get rid of it. And that’s metaphorically and literally what is happening in in a therapy chair.
Marshall Lyles 28:16
Kim Howard 28:17
Great thing. Marshall, how do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR therapist?
Marshall Lyles 28:22
I think funnily enough, some of that starts with where we just were, you have to be comfortable not knowing something. Because you know, in the move from cultural competence to cultural humility, where the shift in words matters, we’re not, we’re not meant to pretend that we’re ever going to fully understand someone’s lived experience, but we need to be responsibly trying to increase our knowledge about multiple people’s lived experiences within cultures that are both similar to us and different from us. And so you, you have to be okay with the fact that you’re not going to be an expert, and in other people’s cultures, or really even in your own, necessarily, from humility, point of view, that every person is going to have, you know, a different perspective of what their identity means and identities crossover. So you belong to multiple communities i i personally want to get better and better and better every day at asking honoring questions, you know, that reflect my not knowing and to figure out how to better be involved. You know, as an example, I guess, probably people listening with necessarily know that I have a disability. I’ve had muscular dystrophy my whole life. And I’m ambulatory still, you know, I walk with aids and but things have gotten more and more complex in my own life. And I’m noticing it’s causing me to be more humble towards other people’s experiences and I’m having some grief about not asking better questions of disabled clients in the early part of my career, because I thought I understood them. You know, like I would almost have this excitement about that able bodied people confuse me. But here’s one of my people so often less curious about their experience and less asking, What do you need? And you know, how does your body or mind need to orient to this space or this process? What’s it felt like for you to be within that community? Because I think I already believed I knew the answer, I was more substituting my own. And those moments and so you, you have to monitor both biases that you have about communities that are unfamiliar to yours, but also automatic assumptions by son about something that you think is familiar to you. And it needs to be tricky, like it, that should be effort, and you should have ongoing processes and people in your life that are helping you to monitor all of that. And I think the other thing we don’t, we don’t always talk a ton about in the EMDR world is getting really good at noticing ruptures that we have in our relationships. And so that’s something that’s important to me as an EMDR healer. How can I start noticing when clients are communicating to me that something in our relationship has shifted, and they’re not feeling as safe as they did a moment before, even if it’s small? And what is my acceptance of responsibility need to look like so that we can have an adequate repair, I think it’s going to be very hard to be humble, culturally humble or humble in any way, if you’re not prepared to give an apology when an apology is warranted, or to not lead with defensiveness and try to explain why you did something before you really just hear, you know, someone else’s experience. So I’m, I’m trying to get better at those parts.
Kim Howard 32:00
Yeah, I’m listening to Brene Brown’s audio book, I think it’s called ‘Atlas of the Heart.’ And there and right now, the section that we’re on is just what you talked about. And I don’t mean to use the term active listening, because I felt like sometimes that might be overused. But we, as a society, in general, as a people in general, are so concerned, when we’re having conversations with people who are arguments about what we’re going to say back, that we’re not actually listening, and what they’re saying, we hear what they say, we’re not listening to what they say, and hearing and listening are two different verbs and how I’m like, Oh, I totally do that. I totally do that when you know, when I’m arguing with my husband, or my kids about something, you know, I’m totally ready and trying to prepare myself for what I’m going to say back to what they’re saying to me. And I’m not really focused on what they’re, I’m not listening to them. And so that is something I think all of us can try to improve on. Because we have a lot more in common as a as a society than we think we do. If we would only open up our ears better, and listen to other people instead of just hearing other people.
Marshall Lyles 33:12
Yeah, it and that’s one of those tensions that I wish we could all get better at is listening for what we have in common, but also being comfortable with where we’re different. In the world of therapy, one of the things that baffles me is how divisive professionals are, you know, about different schools of thought and I think be impassioned, and be convicted. And yet we have to practice listening to one another’s, you know, approaches and different preferences in the way they’re working, even if we never had any intention of working in that way ourselves. And it doesn’t resonate with what we believe, you know, healing is that to not automatically start from a position of defensiveness and even condescension, it’s, we, we gotta model that within our profession, if we’re going to then be able to practice it with our clients.
Kim Howard 34:04
It’s a very good point. Marshall, do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource that you would suggest for either the public or other EMDR therapists?
Marshall Lyles 34:14
The thing that comes to mind is if the poetry part has piqued your interest, I have put things I’ve written on my website that any anybody can download and use for free, a lot. A lot of the poems I’ve written have, you know, kind of EMDR therapists will recognize different aspects of Oh, this feels very familiar to a certain EMDR process. And you know, some of them feel more like my personal resources, and some of them are summations of healing, and some of them are like calling out, and especially if you’re someone who’s working with populations of people with disabilities, there are series of poems there about disability and ableism and in reclaiming reclaim earning power and challenging the inherent ableism built into our field that I would just love for anyone to take and use in whatever way would be supportive either in their own professional development or in their use with clients.
Kim Howard 35:13
Well, thank you, that’s very generous. What would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR therapy and expressive arts?
Marshall Lyles 35:21
You know, in maybe in other parts of the world, this might not be as
EMDR International Association
Copyright © 2023 EMDR International Association
Howard, K. (Host). (2023, March 15). EMDR Therapy and Expressive Arts with Marshall Lyles, LPC-S, LMFT-S, RPT-S (Season 2, No. 6) [Audio podcast episode]. In Let’s Talk EMDR podcast. EMDR International Association. https://www.emdria.org/letstalkemdrpodcast/
EMDR Therapists, General/Public
Let's Talk EMDR podcast