Kim Howard 00:04
Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association or EMDRIA. I am your host Kim Howard. In this episode we are talking with EMDR certified therapist and consultant, Robert Grigore. About EMDR therapy intensives. Robert is located in Surrey, British Columbia, Canada. Let’s get started. Today we’re speaking with EMDR certified therapist and consultant Robert Grigore. About EMDR therapy intensives. Thank you, Robert, for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

Robert Grigore 00:34
Well, thank you so much for having me. You know, Kim, I’ve had the the honor of being interviewed on some major national news outlets like CTV, CBC global news, VC one, TV shows, radio shows podcasts, even by an Emmy Award winning producer who worked on the Oprah Ahow and honestly, Kim, this is, this is one of the defining moments of my career just being on this podcast with you. So thanks for having me.

Kim Howard 00:58
Oh, wow, you are so kind. I don’t think we’re in the same boat as all those people that you just mentioned. But we are trying to do our best to spread the word about EMDR therapy and get it out there to the public and let them learn about it. So thank you for helping us do that. We appreciate it.

Robert Grigore 01:13
Yeah, and hopefully on this podcast, I’ll get to shine some light on on the accelerated approach for EMDR. And, you know, as we know, EMDR is really incredible treatment. And then the way that I’ve I’ve learned to doing EMDR with intensives is like EMDR with a jet pack and wings. And, you know, but spoiler alerts, like Icarus, I did fly too close to the sun and got burned, and hit the ground pretty hard. So I’m gonna point out some things for you know, clinicians listening. And also for clients. If you know, speed, precision, and results are important. This is definitely the podcast for you. So I look forward to this.

Kim Howard 01:49
That’s great. Thank you. So Robert, tell us a little bit about your path to becoming an EMDR therapist.

Robert Grigore 01:55
Okay, well, for four hours, not four months, that is what I heard when a high-profile media celebrity walked out three quarters of the way through her very first EMDR session with me. And if I told her that therapy would have taken four months, you probably wouldn’t have lasted five minutes in that session. So I started as my career as a talk therapist, and was doing all the good stuff, you know, kept a good space held the room, you know, containment and all that stuff, and allowed clients to share their stories, I was working at the time with the BC Society for Male Survivors of Sexual Abuse. It was where I did my practicum. And I just went from there right into the agency work there. And I was working with the same clients for a long time for three years. And it was every week, 90-minute sessions, the same stories. And you know, I was I was really struggling at a certain point, I thought, Robert, if I keep doing this, I’m gonna burn out. Right? I just couldn’t, you know, go past I couldn’t help them. I thought they move they’re probably burning out to on me. So I have to do something. And I remember to my master’s education, just in that margin of one of my papers, I had written EMDR, just in case I have a client with you know, horrible trauma, and then I’ll just send them to like, so I didn’t even I didn’t understand EMDR at that point. But it came to my memory. I thought, okay, Robert, I’ll go go ahead and do a training. So I spent the, you know, the thousands of dollars to do the training. And I sat down in front of one of one of the trainers Marshall Wilenski in BC. Great trainer. And I remember thinking the very first like before the first lunch break, I thought, you know, Kim, I said, Robert, I’m gonna leave. This is absolutely ludicrous. There’s no way this could help people. This is crazy. you wave your hand, and they’re gonna get better. No. So I almost laughed. And I said, You know what, you paid all this money, and you need the credits anyway. So you might as well just stay and do this and do the training. One of the best decisions of my whole career. So I took by training after you know, the first part of that training, I took it back to my clients at the agency and one client of mine was saying to me before, Robert, if I ever saw my abuser, I would effing kill him. And at that time as a talk therapist, I thought, yeah, my spa appropriate response. Yeah, I can understand that. Right. And then so I did 390 minute sessions with him. And he goes, Robert, if I saw my abuser in the mall, I could have a civil conversation with him. We would not be friends, but don’t get me wrong, but we can talk. Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. So from there, it was, you know, both feet headfirst into EMDR. And never looked back.

Kim Howard 04:36
That’s a great story. And your story is not uncommon. We hear this a lot with our podcast guests that they thought oh, what is this pixie dust? They’ve used the term pixie dust used on his podcast who’ve heard the words magic use on this podcast and you know, and so it sounds almost too good to be true – until they’ve experienced it until they practice it on someone for themselves, they get their own EMDR therapy, and they’re like, wow, this really does work. And so we’re here to share the information with people so that it’s an option for them, you know, not, not all therapies work for all people, it’s sort of like a medication situation, you sort of have to try it in your body to see if you’re going to have a response to it or not, unfortunately, and so therapy is a little bit like that, you know, you kind of got to find you have to find the right therapist and the right combination of therapies for you that work for you. And that might include medication, it may not, but this is an option for people. So we’re glad that you found us, yeah, absolutely.

Robert Grigore 05:34
So glad.

Kim Howard 05:35
What is your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy, Robert?

Robert Grigore 05:39
From the clients perspective, I’ll say that, you know, having the turnaround time, and the results coming so fast for so many clients, like three years with the same client going around, and what I just felt like, you know, hamster wheel sort of therapy, and it’s not to be disrespectful, because they’re getting great stuff. They’re getting, you know, they’re sharing the story and everything, but they just weren’t getting the resolution that they’re looking for. So it was like, the fastest thing I’ve ever tried. I’ve been a client of talk therapy many times before, and different variations in EMDR is has been incredible for that. And then from the clinicians perspective, definitely, you know, minimal, vicarious, traumatization. And way less burnout for the clinician, you know, we get to, you know, hold the space, but then the clients tell us this awful stuff that’s happened to them, and various, you know, degrees of that. And then it’s very quickly to the resolution. So we’re not, at least for my experience, I’m not carrying around their horrible stories has happened to them, obviously, they care about them. But it’s the difference between empathy and compassion, or empathy. And my perspective is feeling where the client is myself. And then compassion is understanding where the client is having kindness for it, and then being able to help it.

Kim Howard 06:54
Yeah, we’ve talked about this before, on this podcast about self-care for therapists. I mean, people who do what you all do, you guys are literally changing people’s lives. You know, sometimes you’re even saving people’s lives. And I can only imagine what it was like to sit in an office or even if it’s your home office, and listen to people’s trauma all day long, whether it’s something like extremely tragic and trauma traumatic, or whether it’s something that a little less intense, it’s still all intense. And so what how do you practice self care?

Robert Grigore 07:30
That’s a good question. So I have my own EMDR therapist, number one. I’ve been doing that for the since I’ve been a client of therapy since my master’s education. So I’m always staying connected in that. And so that’s definitely one thing early my career was music. And now I just I have kids. And so what at some point in time is a very little. So they’re, they’re, they’re a mix, sometimes they’re incredibly grounding and soothing and amazing to hang out with, I guess, all kinds of joy that it sounds is my head’s about to explode. But, but you know, honestly, with EMDR therapy, there isn’t as much need for self- care, because we’re not carrying as much stuff with us. So there’s my experience anyway, I’ve worked through all of my my own issues. And so I’m not triggered when clients bring up anything to me. So yeah, I try to take care of my weight, I try to take care of my diet and my food that I ingest, and, and sleep, that sort of thing is useful. So yeah, absolutely.

Kim Howard 08:31
Well, let’s talk about why you’re here. Today, we’re gonna talk about EMDR therapy intensives. So could you explain a little bit to the audience about what those are? And then talk about a couple of successes that you’ve seen using those?

Robert Grigore 08:43
Yeah, for sure. So when I say EMDR intensive, what I’m talking about is two things. It’s the duration of a session being longer than the standard, you know, 50 minute, 60 minute, 90 minute session is usually where most clinicians do their EMDR work. So I’m talking anywhere from a two-hour session to a six-hour session. So that would be an intensive session, and then frequency. So there’s two levers we can pull to get results faster for clients is the duration of session and how frequently we see that client. So that’s what I mean by intensive. So pulling those two levers. You talked about, you know, you asked me about successes. And you know, there’s there’s there’s almost too many to count, but I did anyway, so we’d like to hear that. So personally, I’ve done I’m up to 39 at the time of this podcast and up to 39 in EMDR, intensive weekend. So I’ve done with people, and 37 of them have significantly changed their lives. So big, big results, and the only ones that didn’t change their lives. One needed more therapy than we thought and then the other one just decided that it wasn’t for her anymore. And so that’s that’s the clients right at any point in time they can back out of any therapy. So 37 is pretty good. I’ll take it every day of the week. Yeah. And then I You know, I’ve got some success stories that thought about here for you. So Mike, give me permission to share his identity. So we’re all good there. So Mike, he was a successful financial consultant for many, many decades. And then COVID hit, and he lost a bunch of business all at once. And then you know, he was triggered with that vulnerability he was experiencing and pull, you went all the way back to the sexual abuse experience as a young child. And at that point, before he saw me, he’d been contemplating suicide daily. Wow. So every day he was thinking, Should I do it? Shouldn’t I do it, he was right at the edge. But then he chose, you know, therapy. So he saw me he reached out to me. And we did intensive EMDR therapy treatment with him. And now he’s published a book. He’s, he runs his own podcast. And he’s created a nonprofit organization that helps to support survivors of childhood trauma with their healing journey. Right, starting with men at this point for him. So it’s really, really cool. And then how many hours did it take for Mike? 70 and a half hours, and he was done. So and that was mostly done with two-hour sessions in rapid succession. So meaning we did three to four sessions per week. And so the lever that we pulled with Mike was frequency. And the main decision that we did that was because of the way his benefits plan was structured, he couldn’t, you know, Bill, a six hour session on his benefits plan had to be two hours with the max that they could so we just did that as often as we could. And as I mentioned, remember, two levers for success, a, you know, for results for speed of results. So one was the the duration, the frequency that one is duration. And so with Mike, we did the frequency with Chuck, we did the duration lever. So Chuck was, you know, despite being a professional hockey player for 13 or so years, he was lacking self esteem felt worthless, he was struggling with financial stress, as well as stress within his relationship and his intimate partnership with his wife. And by the way, those beliefs began way before he was born. And then he got, you know, into it when he was little. So they really immerse themselves with him. And his dad would often say, ‘Don’t be, don’t don’t try to be a quarter when you’re only a dime.’

Kim Howard 12:10
Oh my God.

Robert Grigore 12:11
So it was that all the time he got that. So of course, he had these negative beliefs about money and his self worth. So with Chuck, what we did is we did a two hour session to begin with. And then that was just to make sure he’s a fit for a longer session. And then from there, we did a six-hour session, three hours in the morning, three hours in the afternoon. And then the follow up morning was just a two hour session and he was done. So it’s lasted it’s been over several months now since I saw him last results are still there. He was so thrilled with the results that he had invited me to be a guest speaker in front of his professional hockey players association. So big impacts I’ll give one more example before we go on so both levers at the same time right so we did the duration the frequency you put them together it’s the what I consider the typically the best results for people Wendy struggled with trichotillomania so that’s hair pulling for people loads of shame there for her with that addiction. And you know, she on the on paper, she had it all right, she had successful entrepreneur in the healthcare space. From the outside perspective, she had looks the the brains is successful business, the money, everything you could think of right, but she still felt worthless. And she couldn’t stop herself from pulling her hair. And so both levers we pulled with her. So we did three days, five hours each day. And so 15 hours total field, like that was powerful stuff. So the addiction stopped, beliefs change, life change. Before the work we did, she was too timid to fire a toxic employee that was causing havoc in her business. The next week, she fired the employee put in place all these structures and routines to build company cohesion within all, you know, the levels of the her company, her self esteem lifted, you know, had confidence that she felt worthy regardless. And she started going on dates before she felt too vulnerable to do that. Right. And, you know, I checked in with her not that long ago, this was years ago, we did the treatment, and she’s you know, committed relationship. Think about having a baby. Wow, man.

Kim Howard 14:16
That’s amazing. And those are all amazing stories. And I’m so grateful that they found you, or anyone like you who could do that kind of work and, and help them I mean, you know, it’s so it’s so wonderful to hear those success stories that people have recovered and are healthy and living their life the way they want to live it not the way they have to live it based on their history and their trauma and anything else that’s happened to them in their past. So thank you for all that work. That’s beautiful.

Robert Grigore 14:44
Thank you. I can tell you mean it, too. Thank you very, very much.

Kim Howard 14:47
Just amazing. So thank you. So Robert, are there any myths that you would like to bust about EMDR therapy intensives?

Robert Grigore 14:54
Yeah, I think two of them number one, that they’re dangerous and number two, anyone can do them.

Kim Howard 14:59
There you go.

Robert Grigore 15:01
So while they’re there, there’s not loads of research yet about EMDR therapy intensives are a couple, so I got them right here. So Bogart sent in Ad de Jongh conducted what I believe is the very first EMDR therapy intensive research, there have been intensives on CBT and other types of approaches, but not not EMDR until this point. So that was back in 2017, published in the Journal of EMDR Rractice and Research. So they took seven individuals, three male and four female with severe Complex PTSD, and put them all in an intensive, rigorous EMDR intensives, including athletic activities. Their approach was two sets of four consecutive days of 90-minute EMDR sessions, one in the morning, one of the afternoon, and then sandwiched between six hours of sports and two hours of group psychoeducation. So there were a lot going on for them. The results of that study showed that it was a significant improvement in the PTSD symptoms. And then the results were maintained three months after your follow up. And then the second study that I found by Mendez at all, and in 2018, who conducted a modified approach to the previous study, 12 patients five day intensive format where they did 90 minutes in the morning, 90 minutes in the afternoon, and then they did trauma-informed yoga instead of the intensive athletics. In the previous study, one patient dropped out due to personal values no longer aligning with the study, but then all 11 other participants significantly reduced their symptoms. So those two studies demonstrate to me that there was enough evidence to support the intensive approach wasn’t itself dangerous, and that it was worth exploring for my clients. So I’m not going to go on record and say it’s completely right for everybody, because it’s not, but it’s certainly, you know, more safe than I had first anticipated. And then I might even argue this, too, that not proceeding in an intensive format may actually be dangerous for some clients. So I’m thinking about the suicidal client here, the active addiction client here, or a client, like a CEO, or a celebrity who, you know, has a major event like the next week, and that could make or break their career. Those are really important, you know, situations that intensive can help with. And then the second myth that I pointed out was that anyone could do intensives. And I disagree with that, I think that despite maybe having the best intentions, not every clinician has enough clinical experience, or proper training to conduct an effective intensive, especially the ones when I’m considering five or six hours per day, you know, times, you know, two or three or you know, to six days in a row or something like that. And then of course, like I said before, not every clients fit for an intensive, no matter how badly they might want to do it. Which is part of the reason I’m actually in the midst of creating an EMDRIA approved training to conduct effective intensive, so fingers crossed EMDRIA will approve it. And they’ll will be you know, you know this sooner than later.

Kim Howard 18:01
I’m glad you mentioned that. We’ll put those two studies that you mentioned in the description box so that people can go out and read it themselves. So thank you for mentioning those. And yeah, you’re right, it’s… Finding a therapist is like finding a doctor, like finding an auto mechanic. I mean, you really have to do your research. And you know, you have to go to someone’s website and find out is this your area of expertise. If somebody doesn’t deal with children, you probably don’t want to go to that therapist, if it’s a child’s situation, right? You want to find somebody who works with children, you want to find somebody who understands how to work with children. And so it’s behooves the client to make sure they’re doing some research on their potential therapist, whether that person offers EMDR, EMDR, intensives, or other therapy options. So yes, please do your research. And please make sure that your therapist is educated and certified and has all of the things that you need for whatever you’re seeking to solve. Very good piece of advice. Thank you. Are there any specific complexities or difficulties with using EMDR intensives?

Robert Grigore 19:01
Yeah, of course. So you know, like I said, not every client is ready to do an intensive approach, it’s not a good fit for every client. So that’s really important to can’t overstate that. But you know, before taking anybody through an intense of the clinician needs to make sure that the client can maintain dual attention. So for those of you who aren’t EMDR therapists, that means to have one foot in the past memory or what we’re working on one foot in the present. And additionally, they have to be able to switch between memories fairly easily without being completely overwhelmed, and you know, dissociating, so you need to have some level of being able to be nice and present there. And then the clients that are most successful with intensives are the clients that are able to be more more introspective. And some Often this means they’ve done some previous therapy before was a different approach. So they’ve they’ve got what we consider an adaptive neural network. That’s that’s going to be expanded a little bit more than then some clients. We can we can really start anywhere, but in order to do intensives, we need to make sure that some pieces are in place there. And we have to, you know, think about it, this is going to be an intensive process. So we need to be able to decline to be able to tolerate to some degree, at least moderately, both positive and negative emotions. And some clients really struggle with, you know, feeling positive feelings, and some really struggle with negative feelings. So if they can do kind of both with moderates, you know, now doesn’t have to be like, you know, pro at this, but just a little bit, and then we’re good. And then I’ll say one of the most more difficult presentations to work with are clients that are inactive substance addiction. And that’s really a challenge. If you’re doing your weekly sessions, you know, 60 minutes, you know, every week, every other week, there’s a lot of time that goes between the you know, for the regular approach, and then with intensives is one of those things where you want to, if possible, pull both levers again, so duration and frequency of a session. And here, if money and time aren’t a barrier to treatment, then we want to be setting aside in five days of six hours each day. And that can be incredibly beneficial client might not always need five days. But at least having it set aside so that we can work with it if we need it is really good. And it also gives a lot of time with the clinicians present where if they’re triggered with the work that we’re doing, we can work with the triggers right away in session to an astounding effect. That reminds me of a client that I was working with not too long ago, active cocaine use said he was struggling with we did a four day intensive together and we split the two days, the four days up into two sets of two. And then in the week between sessions he did end up using again, of course, he has loads of shame with that. And we worked through that together. But then that was actually a route for us to go much deeper because his experience was that for that much fresher for him though. So there’s lots of things there. And then when I’m thinking about you know, these intensives there’s there’s trainings that you know, really important for people to have and ways of looking you know how to work and I haven’t done every training myself, but the ones that have been really helpful are being able to work with structural dissociation or parts of the personality or ego state work however you want to say it in that I did that with Dr. Philip Govero it was really helpful for me. Phil Mansfield’s flash technique very helpful for me on the addictions protocols really helpful on prefer Robert Miller’s feeling state addiction protocol, and then working with chronic pain and physical symptoms. And here, I can’t recommend Gary Nrothers training highly enough for me that was just absolutely instrumental in the development. Even when I’m not working with people with physical you know, quote unquote, symptoms or chronic illnesses. It’s just really expanded, you know, the way that I work.

Kim Howard 22:38
Gary Brothers wrote for our new Q2 Go With That magazine. So he wrote for us on chronic pain for the Q2 issue. So yeah, he’s, he’s fantastic. But we haven’t done a podcast on chronic pain. So it’s on my to do list for this year. So Robert, how do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR, therapist?

Robert Grigore 22:58
Simple Kim: transparency. I tell my clients that I am aware of what I’m aware of, and what I’m not aware of, and I’ve warned them of my ignorance, because I don’t know all things. So I’ll ask my clients to educate me as to their particular culture, and their specific spiritual belief systems. So that’s, that’s really important. I believe, in terms of culture, there’s different levels of cultures, we have got the culture of the region or where the clients lives or and or where they’ve been born than their family’s background, and then the specific culture of their immediate current family that they’re in. So there’s so many different levels that we have to think about. from an agency perspective, my practice is growing, and I’ve gotten associates now working with me, and the time is podcast, I asked two of my colleagues to be associates for me, both of them are female. One is part Indigenous of the Tahltan Nation, and the other is Indo-Canadian. And together, we’re in the process of putting together some some cultural trainings to help corporations become more culturally sensitive. So we’re doing what we can to try to shift perspectives, especially from a trauma informed perspective, and try to help more people become more aware and more sensitive.

Kim Howard 24:07
Yea, that’s great. That’s wonderful. Thank you. Do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource that you would suggest either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

Robert Grigore 24:17
Yeah, I’ve had I kind of several. So I have to show my clients. I love the graphic of the polyvagal theory, which I find to be incredibly helpful to explain what’s actually happening in people’s nervous systems. And it’s a bit of a shift from the the old window of tolerance, which is still very beneficial. But the polyvagal theory is just incredibly helpful. So at all, even during the consultations, I will make sure this is a point no matter if they work with me or not. They have to know about this stuff. The other one is any of these podcasts can these are very helpful for people. So you know, go back, listen to the other podcast and forward at this point. One that I do is a free resource of my book, which is found on my services page right at the bottom if you scroll all the way down It was published in 2016. And so it goes up to up to date research at that point in terms of EMDR case studies, statistics, and it gives the public a pretty good, cursory understanding of the standard protocol, as well as tips and you know, how to select, you know, the right EMDR therapist for them. So that stuff you talked about, how do you know that they’re educated? What questions do you ask to an EMDR therapist? Who were they trained by? I won’t mention any names here. But we’re gonna go through an EMDRIA approved training or not, but important stuff that we want to make sure that they know about. And then on on our blog page, if you will, look, I’ve got some free examples and techniques of how to relax the vagus nerve, which is very helpful. And it shouldn’t be triggering for most people. Of course, if you’re listening to this, do your research. Be mindful, you know, be very careful as to what you’re trying because anybody can teach you anything out there to just be very mindful yourself there. And I want to share it. Can I share one more?

Kim Howard 25:55
Yes, of course.

Robert Grigore 25:56
It’s not specific to EMDR, though. But it’s certainly worth a mention. And something that’s really helpful. So there’s a free app out there called PTSD Coach, there’s two versions, there’s the Canadian and the American version. And sorry, to my fellow Canadians out there, I’m going to go ahead, do the American one, okay. It’s

Kim Howard 26:15
Sacrilege.

Robert Grigore 26:18
Don’t sue me guys, PTSD Coach. No, the American one is just a maybe they’ve updated the Canadian, but the it’s just really good. So what this app does is it allows the user to number one, identify the symptoms that they’re having, and then rate them with this very same subjective units of distress that we use now the size scale, right. So basically, for people that aren’t aware of EMDR, it’s how intense is this experience, right now, if you’re at the very top of that scale, so zero to 10, zero is neutral, there’s no distress at all. And 10 is the most disturbance you could possibly experience if you say nine or 10, it’s going to suggest calling a crisis line or 911 in your area. So very helpful can save lives just by that alone, anything else, or I should say all of the different ranges, it suggests different self soothing techniques that you can do that can be helpful. And the really cool thing about that is that it actually starts to learn what your preferences are as a user. So it’s got a little thumbs up thumbs down button on there. So if you liked the activity, you hit thumbs up, and it’s gonna suggest that one more often, so it’s very easy. We all carry our phones with us in our pockets that can really help.

Kim Howard 27:25
Yeah, those are great. And we will list all of the things that you mentioned, and podcast description so that people can go do their research and find that information out. Thank you. I mean, we, you know, we do our best, obviously, we’re EMDRIA, we have EMDR in our name, but we do our best to share information that we find that EMDR therapy, whether it comes from us or other sources, but the second parameter of that is just sharing mental health resources that we find or articles about how to meditate better or whatever, so that people will understand that taking care of your mental health is not a bad thing. You know, it’s something that we all should be doing. If we’re worried about what we’re consuming. And whether we’re drinking enough water, we should also worry about our brain and our emotions, and how we’re tending to those areas. And so we try to share that information as well, just so people have it at their fingertips. So thank you.

Robert Grigore 28:14
Thank you for doing that.

Kim Howard 28:16
What would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR therapy intensives?

Robert Grigore 28:22
When done with the right therapeutic approach, and the right therapists, they really do work and it’s not smoke and mirrors, it’s not snake oil, the proof is in the pudding, you know, after you know, for me nearly 40 tensive clients have the you know, five to six hour one to five day intensive, they work really, really well. And but before you sit down with anyone, you want to make sure that we said before what kind of training they actually have, make sure that they have a policy of pausing if you need to stop in the middle of an intensive so for me even though a client will pay me for you know, three or five days straight, I’m not going to force them to continue with the work if they’re being really triggered. They want to stop like that just doesn’t seem fair to me doesn’t seem ethical. So we want to be able to spot even, or for another way is that they finish early like Chuck did we book three days in a row? He only needed one and a half. That was it. So you know that really it means a lot to the policy. So being an educated consumer, really, really important.

Kim Howard 29:17
Yeah, absolutely. Robert, if you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be?

Robert Grigore 29:22
Probably be an actor or a musician.

Kim Howard 29:25
I like it. What kind of music?

Robert Grigore 29:28
So I was a rhythm guitarist and a lead singer for an acoustic rock band for several years, almost probably almost 10 years. So it was while I was in my master’s education, and then for about the first five years or so I think of my career, maybe six or seven. I eventually decided to make the decision to go full time into therapy so I could help more people. But music is still it’s got a soft spot in my heart. And it’s actually part of the reason why I’m a board member on a nonprofit initiative to help bring EMDR to musicia