Kim Howard  00:05

Welcome to the let’s talk EMDR podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association, or EMDR I’m your host. Kim Howard, in this episode, we are talking with EMDR therapists, Sandra Paulson and Kenneth Gardner about EMDR therapy for the incarcerated. Let’s get started today. We are speaking with Sandra Paulson and Kenneth Gardner to discuss EMDR therapy and the incarcerated. Thank you, Sandra and Ken for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

 

Ken Gardner  00:33

Excellent.

 

Sandra Paulsen  00:34

Thank you for having us.

 

Ken Gardner  00:35

Yes. Thank you for having us.

 

Kim Howard  00:37

Can you guys tell us about your paths to become an EMDR therapist?

 

Sandra Paulsen  00:42

Well, I suppose I should go first, since I’ve been at it since 1991 I was in one of the original courses that Francine taught, and within a couple weeks, had immediately uncovered dissociative disorders using EMDR. And so I became Paul Revere, cautioning people about the risk of uncovering undiagnosed dissociative disorders. And so I’ve been at it for 35 years now.

 

Ken Gardner  01:09

Since 2018 what I saw when I was working in the Detroit Police Department, how police officers, specifically, when they get into shootings and things of that nature, that they weren’t getting good mental health care. I had heard of EMDR. I went to, then the chief of police, and wrote a, what we call an inter office memorandum, and he approved it. And I went to California, and I was trained in EMDR to come back to administer that to our officers who were, you know, going through not just a rough season then, but even prior to then. It’s just wasn’t a lot of good mental health work being done in the police department. So it was very good to go and learn. EMDR, so that that would be an avenue that would be available to the officers.

 

Kim Howard  02:06

I’m glad you’re able to do that, Ken, we, we have a toolkit and a past issue of Go With That Magazine that talks a lot about first responders and how crucial them getting mental health is based strictly on the work that they do and that things that they have to see and experience on a daily basis. So we’re very grateful that that you were able to do that and that your chief of police approved it and made it so. So that’s wonderful. Thank you.

 

Ken Gardner  02:35

And paid for it.

 

Kim Howard  02:36

Yeah, and paid for it. That’s the key, right there. What’s your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy?

 

Sandra Paulsen  02:43

Well, for me, it’s seeing so many miracles of healing. I don’t mean to say I’m doing miracles, but I’m witnessing what sure feels like miracles to me. So after 35/34 years of doing this, I don’t feel burned out. I still feel overjoyed to do the work.

 

Ken Gardner  03:03

Certainly for me also, I think that the most liberating response that I have was a young lady back after the therapy, she fell asleep, she was just so relaxed and so relieved, you know, incredible catharsis. And when she woke up, she stretched and asked me for some water. And I said, Okay, well, I guess I’ll see you next week. And she kind of looked at me, she said, I I think I’m good. I think I’m good now. So I was like, wow, this really works.

 

Kim Howard  03:39

And I’m sure that the clients are so relieved. I don’t, you know, I don’t know each client comes to you guys differently, but sometimes they’ve been through other therapists, sometimes they’ve been through other therapies, and they’ve gotten no relief from whatever they’ve been dealing with. And so that must just what huge burden that you guys are lifting off of their shoulders helping them to heal. So I’m really grateful that you guys are doing that. Ken, what are the specific complexities or challenges of EMDR therapy for the incarcerated?

 

Ken Gardner  04:09

Well, what I’m seeing right now is that they are heavily medicated, so I think it’s going to be difficult for them to try to really get in touch with their emotions because of the medications, and they’re on some heavyweight drugs, I guess you would say so we’re still trying to, well, I’m still trying to work through the dynamics of how that’s going to look. You know, will we be able to talk to the psychiatrist to have them stop their medications, which I think that’s going to be difficult in, you know also, but we’re still looking at how to make that work, because I think that in certainly Sandra can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think being that heavily medicated will run some type of interference.

 

Sandra Paulsen  04:58

One hopes that perhaps medications can be at least reduced. You know, Kim, couple years ago, I did a survey of EMDR practitioners, or clinicians working in prison settings, and it was really interesting, because most of them said that the administration of the prison, although originally might have been reluctant or suspicious of this woo thing, to their point of view, that they became convinced because the level of agitation on the units went down, which is an outcome measure that one doesn’t necessarily think about. I mean, you know, we’re think about, we want to reduce recidivism. We want to serve the community by reducing recidivism. Maybe some people are doing it, and I know this from the interviews I did some some of the clinicians are doing it to relieve human suffering in this population. Never mind that they’re also criminals. So there’s different reasons for doing it, but one that is convincing to prison administration is that the unit itself becomes less violent and more stable. So that’s a pretty interesting way to look at it.

 

Kim Howard  06:16

That is interesting, and it’s good, not only for inmates who are there. It’s also good for the staff and the guards and the warden, anybody who has to manage the population, because the bottom line is that there are more inmates than there are people managing them in terms of just the ratios. And so if you have a population who can learn how to solve their problems better and not resort to violence. You don’t have people getting re sentenced. You don’t have people stuck, saying stuck in the system, and people are just generally safer. So I would think that, I mean, yeah, you’re not the first person on the podcast to mention that. You know, EMDR sounded a little out there in terms of, does this really work? But if we can convince the Federal Bureau of Prisons, and anybody who’s in charge of managing those prisons that, you know, yeah, some people may need medication, but they may not need to be as heavily medicated, and they definitely need some kind of therapy. And if EMDR has been shown to work in the those settings, then let’s make that so, because it just makes it better for everybody.

 

Sandra Paulsen  07:23

Absolutely, one of the things that came out in the interviews the survey I did, was that working conditions are less than ideal for those people working in prison settings, such as the funniest one was somebody who had to do EMDR in a closet sitting on a vacuum cleaner because there was no other room to do it. And you also, you can’t bring in your light bar. You can’t bring anything that can be converted to a weapon or a shank. You know it’s gonna stay home.

 

Ken Gardner  07:57

Yeah, I, matter of fact, this weekend, I was looking at a tapping protocol. I was wondering maybe that would probably a butterfly hug. Yeah, that that, since they do allow for a computer, Sandra did share with me some time ago, blink, EMDR, so then I’m thinking maybe if I get two computers, and they sitting at one end of the table where they can’t reach it, they would actually have to jump up and run down there to get it if they wanted to use it. But they have the computer there, and I’m running it from my computer, that may be another avenue for another working possibility. But again, you know it’s trying to get them off the medications is probably the heart. That’s where I’m kind of, like, really stuck right now, right?

 

Kim Howard  08:54

Yeah. Are the psychiatrists that you talk to…are they resistant to lowering the medications because they haven’t heard of EMDR, or are they just resistant to any kind of therapy?

 

Ken Gardner  09:07

Well, I haven’t really engaged them directly. I’ve been mostly dealing with the unit chiefs to see how that phase of it will look and then try to engage the psychiatrist. You know, I think I’m not sure what their mindset is, but, you know, hoping that it’s not the mindset of, no, they need the, you know, the drugs handle themselves. But you know, I haven’t really had an opportunity to talk to them, so I won’t even go down that end yet. I’ll just talk to them, see what their mind is.

 

Kim Howard  09:46

I might have a couple of or at least one person I can think of off the top of my head, who is a psychiatrist, who’s trained in EMDR therapy, who you might be able to talk to and get some, just some feedback from him, from a professional. Standpoint on tips that might help you to make your point. You know, with that, with that group of people, because they they’re coming from a different perspective, yeah, I think then the EMDR therapists are and so I will be happy to email you his information. We interviewed him for a recent podcast, along with a couple of members on EMDR therapy and psychedelics, and so he’s a big believer in EMDR therapy, not just treating the patient with drugs, but, you know, sometimes people need a combination, sometimes they need one or the other. So I will be happy to email you this information.

 

Sandra Paulsen  10:36

So, one thing maybe our audience needs to understand that Ken just is in the middle of transitioning into prison work. He’s been there, what a month now?

 

Ken Gardner  10:47

Something like that, since August, August the 11th.

 

Sandra Paulsen  10:52

recently, really recently, wow. Okay.

 

Ken Gardner  10:56

Yeah, much of that is the anniversary date.

 

Sandra Paulsen  10:58

Yeah, it’s orientation, getting to know the lay of the land. So it’s a little soon to be going in guns or blazing and trying to place, right?

 

Kim Howard  11:07

Well, yeah, I mean, when he knows the place better than we do, so whenever he’s ready, but he’ll have that that source, at least in terms of knowledge, so that might be helpful. You never know.

 

Ken Gardner  11:18

Thank you. I appreciate it.

 

Kim Howard  11:19

Yeah, absolutely. Are there any myths that you would like to bust about working with EMDR therapy and the incarcerated?

 

Sandra Paulsen  11:25

Well, I know from interviewing 10 clinicians working in prison settings, they said that people often think it’s dangerous work, but they felt that it’s actually safer than in their offices, because in your like, I’m sitting out here in the forest. If I had a scoundrel for our client, I’d be in trouble, little old lady me. But they were saying, you know, there’s guards right outside the door at every turn. These people aren’t going anywhere, so it’s actually safe work. So there was that.

 

Ken Gardner  11:58

Yeah, and they have a very you know, the prison population I’m learning has changed, at least in Michigan, substantially that they really have a lot of safeguards in place, and this ticketing, the prisoner just don’t want the ticketing because ticketing really hurts their chances for parole. Ticketing can be a felony. Assaultive words can be a felony, and you’re talking about adding time. I’d say the greater population of them just kind of refrain from that behavior. And I’m observing that they want help. They do. They do. And the more I engage them about ACEs, and unfortunately, that appears to be the majority of the population there, the more that they begin to understand that and see how trauma as we were able to show in our Sandra and I showed in our former presentation how they got on that road and can’t get off that road. And to see that the way they were treated in the beginning played such an impact. And one of the things I keep drilling so far into them, and they seem to be, you know, moving more and more towards that. And that is bad beginnings. And then I’ll look around the institution and I go bad ending. Lot of them are really becoming more engaged by that.

 

Kim Howard  13:37

Well, that’s good. And I don’t, I don’t think anybody when they’re growing up thinks, Oh, hey, it’s really cool to be a criminal. I mean, nobody wants to be a criminal, and people definitely don’t want to go to jail or to prison. So if you have started, and some people do, start with really crappy beginnings, quite frankly, and then they they managed to get away from that, and they managed to make a better life for themselves. But that’s not the case for a lot of people. You know, it really just depends on who is in your circle, who your friends are, and your family, and what resources you have to help you realize that if you’re in a traumatic setting with your family, this is not normal. This is not healthy. There are better things out there. If you can’t see that, you you just won’t, you won’t get break that cycle. And I know that’s an overused term, but you you won’t be able to get out of it, and it’ll just make your life even worse. So I’m glad that you’re, you’re educating them.

 

Sandra Paulsen  14:34

One of the things we included in our EMDRIA presentation [EMDRIA Virtual Conference 2024], I talked about a couple of cases that I did an outpatient but where the person had previously engaged in criminal behavior. And it was so interesting to watch them go from being calloused and cold and saying, Yeah, I was sexually abused as a kid, but it didn’t bother me, and I convinced them to. EMDR, anyway, and in the course of processing through that, it kind of melted away their callousness, and they remembered that they were a hurt child, and they were overwhelmed and confused, and then they had compassion for the people that they hurt. And that’s, I think, one of the pathways that would get the most traffic if we could find a way to really share the vision. One of the reasons Ken and I were excited to do this podcast is because we have a vision of being able to reduce recidivism. Because when he was talking about being they get on that road, that road that has no exit, and the most extreme examples are serial killers. And Ken saw 19 year homicide detective, so knows something about murder. And of course, serial killers are never going to get out. They’re never going to recidivate. But when we study those cases, it becomes really clear what happened to them. They were profoundly neglected and abused in every which way, most of them, not always. Many of them higher than normal IQs, although some are on the lower end of the normal distribution of IQs. Ken are you at liberty to talk about the current project that’s that you were surprised by the other day?

 

Ken Gardner  16:20

Yes, I was invited by the Detroit City Council Legislation Board to come and make a presentation connecting law enforcement with mental health. And I did a whole presentation just on EMDR. They were so excited by it that they started looking for the funding right away. So it was amazing. And now I ran right out of that session to call Sandra and tell her, now we got to come up with all these different ways of administering. Because I think that, as I was sharing with Sandra, the first goal is like they do this thing in Detroit call in, so then somebody’s out there causing trouble, and they know who it is, and they can do these call ins. Well, what if doing the call in you have a clinician available to start doing some EMDR with that individual. It’s something like that they’re willing to embed into their mental health program and pay for that that these individuals that are called in, if you start administering, will that you know, help them not to go out there again and re offend. So those were some of the things that I was sharing with them, and they they really, really loved it. So I got to fly to Washington and sit down and try to formulate something, because there’s so many different directions that Yep, go with this, because they’re talking about not just for the criminal, but the community at large, in group settings, things of that nature. So it can just expand all over.

 

Kim Howard  18:15

Well, communities now are starting to realize, and I don’t know what the numbers are, because I’m not an expert in that, but they’re starting to realize that some 911 calls require a mental health professional, right? If somebody might be suicidal or that kind of thing, and and how that when they’re trying to bring that in, and they’re trying to work that into the program, so that, honestly, news headlines don’t happen. You know, you don’t want to be on the news because you shot somebody who was having a mental breakdown because they wouldn’t respond and they wouldn’t listen, because their their common sense has just gone off the top right. They’re just so distressed. And so I’m glad that communities and police departments and city councils and county councils, and you know, states are all realizing that that needs to be folded into that 911, service, so that 988 right? 988 is the new number, but that needs to be folded in somewhere along the lines, and it will protect not only the law enforcement and the first responders, but it protects the citizens who’ve made the call, or somebody who’s made the call about the citizen, family member, a friend, even a stranger that says, hey, something, something’s not right here. This is happening, and so happy that they they did that for you. Great, great job.

 

Sandra Paulsen  19:24

Kim, when I was in Israel a couple years ago, I was speaking to an EMDR colleague there, and she was telling me about a program they have in place in Israel where, when there’s a bombing or a terrorist attack, which is a way too common occurrence, in Israel, there’s not only first responders, police, medical dispatch, but psychological and Gary, I think Gary Quinn is involved in that program in Israel. I mean, it’s been systematized. It’s part of the response system now to get people trauma, informed care early. It on. It occurs to me we should take advantage of the fact we’ve got this podcast and stop me anytime. Ken, if this is unwanted, but if there are licensed EMDR clinicians in Michigan hearing us now who would like to be a part of an early pilot program, and it’s the definition of which is unclear at this time. And you know, we don’t know how far the funds that they’re willing to advocate allocate are going to go, whether the initial pilot program would be paid or pro bono. None of that’s known. Part of the vision that I’ve had, and Ken and I have shared, is the idea that some of this for those in prison, and we’re going back and forth talking about those in the community to prevent them going into prison, but for the ones that are in prison, what if telehealth were used in this setting? And I haven’t talked to anybody who’s using telehealth, but talk about safety. One of the I mean, it’s obviously much safer if you’re working by telehealth. One of the hazards that I heard about for people working in prison environments is that naive clinicians that are have a rosy glue glow around how they view what they’re doing and the people that they’re working with in prisons sometimes get involved in Boundary Crossings, or they fall in love with their client, or other untoward things that get them in terrible trouble with the administration, lose their job, lose their license, that sort of thing. It seems to me that it’s a safer environment. Working by telehealth, you’re much less likely to have anybody tempted to try to manipulate or try to get you to bring in contraband into the prison and so forth. So there’s that whole level of analysis. But what do you think Ken, if people, if people are licensed clinicians in Michigan, do you want them to contact you? Or is it,

 

Ken Gardner  22:00

You, you are absolutely correct, yes. Again, getting in on ground level, trying to develop the program, get it started. Who would like to be involved? That will be some of the questions that they definitely will be asking.

 

Kim Howard  22:18

What would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about EMDR therapy with this population?

 

Sandra Paulsen  22:23

To me, the most important thing is we know. I mean, 35 years I’ve been doing EMDR, I know with certainty it changes people’s lives. The things that have kept people reenacting their trauma, like puppets on strings, get resolved and they become free and unburdened, and imagine what the world would be like if we could intervene in some percentage of recidivism. Doesn’t even seem that out of reach to me. I mean, there are the kind of problems that Ken was talking about, like medication. I think one thing that I’ve heard also is that sometimes there’s tension around a staff or clinicians that have been doing the same old, same old, and they’re not entirely willing to have this upstart come in with their woo, woo technology to rock the boat. So those kinds of political dynamics, I’m sure are true of any ossified institution that’s authoritarian and military, militaristic in it. I mean, prisons have to be so there are issues like that that people that I interviewed mentioned, but again, they really emphasized that the administration became very pleased with the EMDR clinicians, because it was turning things around.

 

Kim Howard  23:52

How do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR therapist?

 

Ken Gardner  23:55

I start with the principle that we’re all the same. You know, yes, we’re all different colors and different areas that we were raised or different countries or whatever. But when it all comes down to it, we all have a brain, and it all run by the same chemicals, and we all react pretty much in the same confines. So I kind of level the playing field through psycho education or a client who knows nothing about EMDR, and even for those that do know about it, I try to help them understand your background doesn’t matter. Trauma is trauma, and educating them about how this tool works, and once they get to understand, you know how the forebrain, mid brain, hind brain, it’s all working in unison. And that being able to do the processes through the brain, which we all have, one. It works the same.

 

Sandra Paulsen  24:58

I try to, even at the time of intake….part of the questions that I ask in my intake interview is, who are your people, where do you come from, and when, if there was immigration, when was it? Was it 300 years ago? Or you’re indigenous, you know, then they were born here, and so were their ancestors. So a stance of respectful curiosity, I think, goes an awfully long way. And then when, if it’s a population, one is not trained and familiar with doing the leg work to figure it out, this one is one I did with Shelly Spear Chief, who’s an indigenous traditional [EMDR therapist]. [Sandra shows books that she has authored]

 

Kim Howard  24:59

She’s been on our podcast. Indigenous Trauma and Dissociation. I will, if you send me the link, I will go ahead and include it in the podcast description as well.

 

Sandra Paulsen  25:52

And the reason we wrote this is because dominant culture therapists are ill prepared, often to work with indigenous peoples, and so we’ve got we cover a lot of the common errors that are made, and help people understand the history, and also what kinds of therapeutic interventions are more culturally simpatico than others. And EMDR is on the list, and somatic therapy that fit well with the indigenous ways of being. Not that there’s just one way, but all that and more.

 

Kim Howard  26:26

Michigan and Washington….you guys both live in states that have a pretty large indigenous population as well, so whether that they’ve immigrated in from Canada, or whether they were already here in the U.S., so you’ve got got the whole ball of wax up there in terms of of people who might walk through your door. You know, you don’t have any idea. So it’s good that you’re you’re prepared.

 

Ken Gardner  26:48

You know, just for clarity sake, too, I hope I didn’t come off as though I dismiss the cultural experience. I don’t dismiss it is my psycho education is adding to who they are, where they come from, and then I kind of help them to understand we all respond the same, still, right?

 

Kim Howard  27:13

That is very true. If you’re traumatized, you’re traumatized. Do you have any favorite free EMDR related resources you would suggest, either for the public or other EMDR therapists, and if they’re paid, that’s fine too? We’ll include the link.

 

Sandra Paulsen  27:27

Oh, that changes everything.

 

Kim Howard  27:30

If it’s free, that’s great, but if it’s not free, you know, we’re all about sharing information.

 

Sandra Paulsen  27:35

Well, I did a bunch of free videos that are on YouTube. Just search my name, Sandra Paulsen and I talk about EMDR, ego, state therapy, dissociation, exorcism, the early trauma approach, a whole bunch of different topics like that. I’ve got, I’ve got an alarming number of books I’ve written. It’s getting so I can’t even find them. This is the a book about EMDR with dissociative clients, structurally dissociative. This is about the early trauma approach, when trauma is in the first three years of life, in the attachment period, with contributions by Katie O’Shea. This one is a verbatim transcript of a three day intensive I did, integrating EMDR, somatic work and parts work, ego state therapy.

 

Kim Howard  28:26

That’s great. I think a lot of times I see a lot of times in discussions, people looking for information like that, transcripts and scripts and how do you start the conversation? So that’ll be useful. And if you shoot me an email with those listed, I’d be happy to include those in the podcast.

 

Sandra Paulsen  28:40

And this one, this year, also that about autism. And all of these books that I’ve been showing you are illustrated with cartoons. This is the first one I’ve done in color. There’s also a black and white version of it, but like 100 cartoons about the experience of being autistic, and it include, it’s an EMDR resource as well. But all the books, of course, are I charge for those, but the YouTube videos are free.

 

Kim Howard  29:04

Thank you. If you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be?

 

Ken Gardner  29:07

Oh, wow. If I wasn’t an EMDR therapist, I would probably be looking for something on the level of still EMDR because after becoming, you know, specifically through Sandra claim it with the works of Jaak Panksepp, it just rang so true. That was precisely what I was seeing as a homicide detective, I saw it and so to read that book, I if I might say, if I know something, if I know like two plus two is four, I know that what was written is correct archeology of the mind. Incredible.

 

Kim Howard  29:51

All right, that’s another resource we can put up there. That’s great.

 

Sandra Paulsen  29:54

I’d be a writer and cartoonist, which I also am.

 

Kim Howard  29:57

Oh, so do you illustrate your own books?

 

Sandra Paulsen  30:00

I do.

 

Kim Howard  30:00

Oh, that’s amazing.

 

Sandra Paulsen  30:02

Oh yeha, all those, all those books, have my own original cartoons to illustrate psychological concepts, and because it meets the reader over halfway, so they don’t have to work so hard to comprehend because the constructs jump out in the cartoons.

 

Kim Howard  30:19

That’s pretty awesome. I like that. Growing up, my mom used to tell me that God gives us 10 talents, and it’s up to us to find out what they are and to utilize them well, you’re a writer, you’re an illustrator, you’re a therapist. That’s three right there. I’m sure you’ve got more, but that’s pretty neat. I like that. That’s awesome. Good for you. Ken, I don’t think we talked about this. What made you interested in becoming a therapist when you were a homicide detective, how did that transition happen?

 

Ken Gardner  30:43

There is a incredible story related to that. Was about in 2009-2010 I was doing a interrogation a young man, unfortunately, his emotional derailment caused him to kill his girlfriend, young, young guy. And I was always interested, not in the crime itself, but how did you get here? What happened? Tell me about your life. And a lot of times you would find that these individuals, man, woman and child, just wanted somebody to listen to talk to so I would spend hours just listening to these individuals talk, and he told me the role, well, not kind of, but he definitely told me the role that how he be came who he is. Well, in that moment, I did not see him as a murderer as a killer, and I shared that with him, and he kind of sat there, and then he looked at me, and the detectives thought I was being attacked because he leaped across the table, and he grabbed me, and he said, I still feel it today. He said, Only if you were my father. Oh, my goodness, Pete, oh, God, I still feel that. Yeah, he collapsed to the floor and balled up like an infant, and he just wept. And he just wept so bitterly I cried too. Oh, did some of my partners, and when I went back to my chair, I said, there’s gotta be some something else I can do, because I’m incarcerating so many and I keep seeing that same story over and over and over and over. And I said, there’s gotta be another answer. And I said, Oh, maybe I’ll try therapy.

 

Kim Howard  32:45

that’s amazing, and that’s, that’s awesome, and that’s, that’s oh so true. I mean, if only there were people in, you know, within arm’s reach of somebody who was in a negative, traumatizing situation, who could help them the population we might, we might still have a need for prisons, but there might not be, as a volume, this a need for prison. There might not be as many people in them, you know, because somebody helped them along the way.

 

Ken Gardner  33:11

So and you know, it matched right in too, because that gave me the four Ps, pastoring, psychology, policing, people. It just it fitted my personality. Oh, fifth P personality. That’s amazing,

 

Kim Howard  33:27

Ken. That’s really amazing. Is there anything else either of you want to add?

 

Sandra Paulsen  33:31

I think for me, I just want to say publicly how much fun it’s been and how rewarding to be collaborating with Ken Gardner. You know, it’s just been a lot of fun. We’re sick as thieves. The two of us, we are best buddies.

 

Ken Gardner  33:45

Yup, that is true, and it I didn’t get to finish my segway from pan Sep into Sandra, oh, the the one that I follow and go out to her place, and, you know, I didn’t get the segue that she’s the one who turned me on to Panksepp, so that’s an important detail. So thank you both.

 

Sandra Paulsen  34:10

Yeah, if anybody’s unfamiliar with Jakk Panksepp’s work, it really provides an neural effect of underpinnings for EMDR and the various therapeutic approaches that many of us use somatic work so much more.

 

Ken Gardner  34:24

So, I found that book right there in the library that she’s sitting in right now her office.

 

Kim Howard  34:32

That’s good. Well, we’d be happy to include those resources in there. So whether somebody’s a therapist or potential EMDR therapist or the public, they can go find it themselves and read it if they want. So that’s great. Thank you both. I appreciate it, Sandra, Ken.

 

Sandra Paulsen  34:46

Thank you.

 

Ken Gardner  34:47

Thank you.

 

Kim Howard  34:48

This has been Let’s Talk EMDR Podcast with our guests, Sandra Paulson and Kenneth Gardner. Visit www.emdria.org for more information about EMDR therapy. Or to use our Find an EMDR Therapist Directory with more than 16,000 therapists available. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this free podcast wherever you listen. Thanks for being here today.