How can EMDR therapists teach presence and centeredness to clients? Sarah Jenkins, MC, LPC, CPsychol, suggests using a four-legged friend. Equine therapy is not a new concept. It’s been used for decades to help people with physical disabilities. So, how can these beautiful creatures help EMDR therapy clients? Can equine-assisted therapy with EMDR help clients with complex PTSD? What about EMDR therapists who don’t have access to horses but want to integrate equine-assisted therapy into their practice? Learn more about this approach to EMDR therapy.
Sarah’s Go With That magazine article, “Eight Phases. Three Prongs. Four Legs.” appeared in the Fall 2022 issue. Please see this PDF document for more resources Sarah suggested during the podcast.
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Produced by Kim Howard, CAE.
Kim Howard 00:03
Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR Podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association or EMDRIA. I’m your host Kim Howard. In this episode we are talking with EMDR certified therapist, approved consultant, trainer and speaker Sara Jenkins. Sara is in Chandler, Arizona, where she specializes in EMDR animals is an equine therapy. Let’s get started. Today we are speaking with an EMDR therapist and approved consultant Sara Jenkins about integrating EMDR therapy with equine therapy. Sara is an author, speaker EMDR trainer and facilitator in Chandler, Arizona. Thank you Sarah for being here today. We are yes, we are. You said yes. So Sara, tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming an EMDR therapist.
Sarah Jenkins 00:49
So I was a real early adopter of EMDR therapy. I got trained in EMDR, probably 21 or so years ago. And I it’s funny when I look back, it seems so long ago. And yet at the same time ago, it seems just like yesterday.I was really grateful to be mentored in my graduate years by a psychologist that actually was also an early adopter of EMDR therapy. And really said to me at the end of my practicum and internship with him, he said, if you’re going to help trauma, which is what I know you want to do, you have no choice but learn this modality. And he was well versed in working with complex trauma and dissociation. And so because I was really under his wing in that, it was just not an option not to. And I was probably in my nonprofit that I was working in at the time, the first clinician to get trained in EMDR. And I thought I was all just off my rocker. And what’s that weird eye movement stuff you’re doing if I heard that from everyone, you know, in the EMDR world back in the day, and then about three months later, when they saw changes, they went, Oh, wait a minute, can you take my client? It really works. Really well. Weird stuff really works. So I literally left my graduate degree with my graduate degree and my EMDR therapy training in hand at the same time. And of course, back then it was part one with an optional part two. So I did my part one and then subsequently my part two, and then off we went. And in the area of Arizona, we’re really lucky here. I mean, you can even now you know, we can throw a rock and probably hit 40 EMDR therapist is so many of us around. But the California community of EMDR therapy was really supportive of bringing Arizona folks EMDR therapy. And so it was just a natural trajectory for me and my career. And I haven’t looked back since I can’t imagine not doing EMDR therapy really, it’s really all I’ve ever known.
Kim Howard 02:35
That’s, that’s a great story. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. So tell me a little bit about what your favorite part of working with EMDR therapy is.
Sarah Jenkins 02:44
I think at the most basic level, it gives people hope. And I think all of the EMDR therapists have had the experience when you have clients have said I’ve tried everything, or I thought this would work and it didn’t or you’ve had clients that have stayed only in their cortex. And they’ve focused primarily on staying in their cortex and not getting to that bottom up way that we need to work which EMDR therapy gives us. And I think for me, it inspires me because clients get hope. And then even training people in EMDR, it gives therapists hope, because they’ve maybe they’re seasoned therapists, and they say I’ve done all I can and I think there’s something else I need and that that’s what I hear a lot. So it gives therapists hope it gives clients hope. And even as someone who’s done my own personal work with EMDR, it works. I mean, at the end of the day for the things that are unmanageable. Really, this works and to have something that provides people with a door through the tragedies they’ve gone through to me, it makes EMDR viable, it makes EMDR offer people an opportunity to think outside of where they are now and to see that they can possibly have change and have a different life than they experienced.
Kim Howard 03:59
That’s what I hear from a lot of authors for the magazine and a lot of guests on the podcast is that, you know, some people are just at their wit’s end trying to come up with a solution.
Sarah Jenkins 04:11
You are my last resort. Yeah.
Kim Howard 04:12
And EMDR therapy has found they have found it or it is found them and yeah, that’s worked, has it doesn’t use the word miracle, but it’s basically almost performed in the client’s eyes or in the patient’s eyes, almost a miracle in terms of how their life has changed after EMDR therapy.
Sarah Jenkins 04:26
They’re wit’s end, they just, and at the end of the day, they just want to feel something different. They just want to be in a different state. They don’t want to be afraid anymore. They don’t want to be in that state of hyper vigilance. They want to be able to feel free and yeah, I think that’s what it comes down to and offers us the chance to do that.
Kim Howard 04:46
So let’s talk a little bit about why you’re here today. What successes have you seen using EMDR therapy with equine therapy for clients?
Sarah Jenkins 04:53
So the idea for equine-assisted EMDR came to me about about the same time that I got trained in EMDR. I remember sitting in the train and going, ‘hey, wait a minute, horses and EMDR.’ And, you know, even through the years, people come to me and go, I knew they had to get together, these things had to combine somehow, but you did. So the reason I mentioned that is because my favorite part about the integration of bringing equine-assisted interactions into EMDR therapy is that, especially for the folks that are really complex, the folks that have the highest level of dissociative process, you know, like many of my colleagues that will be listening to this there. There, there are many folks that we’re seeing that meet criteria for just quote and I say, just the simple PTSD, you know, people are walking in with layers and layers and layers of developmental traumas from zero all the way to current day. And they these clients really needed some greater level of stabilization, they needed to find a way their healer dissociative process. And quite honestly, humans were the one that hurt the most in terms of credibility as a human walking in with folks that have complex trauma, I needed something in addition to just me. So the reason I bring that in is because I’ve seen people that even with the power of EMDR, but with their complexity really needed greater stabilization needed their dissociated process to be healed to be able to begin to process. I, you know, I have clients that some EMDR therapist might have even said, well, oh, EMDR is not right for them. Instead of thinking, I need to titrate how we phase four, oh, I have to extend my stabilization, I need to treat their dissociation. So for clients that maybe even for some EMDR therapist, maybe these clients have been so complex that EMDR therapists have been reticent, and appropriately so to go into phase four processing, right, because we know there, that level of complexity needs a lot more titrated work and stabilization. I’ve seen those kinds of clients get the most benefit, because the horses provide this unbelievable way to give an experiential way of clients getting adaptive information, it was a big difference between asking someone with complex trauma, for example, to envision a calm place, you know, which, you know, some people just laugh at, well, what the heck is that calm place, I’ve never known that or even know what calm is, it freaks me out. But if they can be with a 1,200 pound animal, that’s a flight animal and that is constantly aware of what’s happening in the world, and very aware of energy and very aware of if there’s threat, we have an opportunity to help people who are really complex go, oh, that horse can be calm, maybe I can. And so the the many, many examples of people that I’ve treated through the years have been all of them have been inspiring is not the one that isn’t, but the ones that are really in that secondary, tertiary dissociation place. Those are the folks that I’ve seen the most successes, because they, again, like we’re talking about, they just want to feel different. And their partnership with horses enables them to maybe get access to social engagement to get some calming skills to be able to increase their ability to tolerate calm, treat their dissociation in ways that if I was just sitting in office, and not doing this in an experiential way, I would have found harder, and did find harder to be honest with you before I brought these two together.
Kim Howard 08:26
It’s a good answer. Thank you. Are there any myths that you would like to bust about EMDR and animal assisted therapy?
Sarah Jenkins 08:33
Sure, I love this question. Because there’s so many different places like a go. So though, the word animal assisted therapy, even within the field of animal assisted therapy is kind of a misnomer in terms of, there’s not a, there’s not a standard of practice, per se. For example, let’s say in the equine-assisted world, or even animal-assisted overall, and how to do animal assisted interactions for trauma-focused therapy. So the word animal-assisted therapy doesn’t necessarily mean someone is a therapist who’s doing the work, it also doesn’t necessarily mean that someone that is bringing in animal-assisted interactions is coming from a clinical perspective. So the myths, the myths are more about if we’re going to be working with or bringing into central work or finding colleagues to network with, which is great and very important. We want to make sure that people are trained in trauma, baseline, right, that’s the foundation because we want to maintain the standard of practice and working with trauma. And then when they bring the animals into that, are they utilizing those interactions with the animals in a way that is supportive of the clinical skills that we need to have in order to do sound clinical work. And at the same time, we’re working with our animals in a conscious way where they’re regarded as sentient beings and they get to participate by choice. So some of the myths are the just when we say animal-assisted therapy that that means someone is a therapist doing animal-assisted work, you can have folks who are doing animal-assisted interactions they might be doing so from a coaching perspective, or they might be doing so from a perspective, maybe they’re actually doing therapeutic writing, which actually might be about working with folks in terms of physical disability. So long and short answer of it is if we’re working with someone who’s providing animal -assisted interactions, ask him about their modality they come from and asking them about how they think change happens. And if they are a therapist, what are their trainings in providing animal-assisted interactions, those kinds of things.
Kim Howard 10:36
Good questions, that’s good, because we’re all consumers of many things. And so you have, basically do your homework as well, if you’re looking for a mental health professional, just right. And you if you’re looking for physical doctor, exactly at a car or anything, it sounds kind of strange. You’re like I’m in crisis, and I need help. I shouldn’t do homework, but you sort of do you have to, like be your own advocate. And you have to ask those questions and make sure that you’ve done the right research. Well, right. So for example, right person?
Sarah Jenkins 11:04
Yeah, you know, I could, I could just because we put an animal in a therapy experience doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re doing animal-assisted therapy. So, you know, in the equine world, I always talk about, you know, just because we put a horse in the therapeutic session, doesn’t mean that we’re working with that, and utilizing that in a way, what’s the clinical perspective through which we see the animal express themselves? So for me, of course, it’s always EMDR. I’m looking at all these interactions: How does it support EMDR? And the clients moving through that? So just having the knowing the therapeutic lens through which the animal-assisted provider is working through.
Kim Howard 11:44
Thank you. Are there any specific complexities or difficulties with us in EMDR therapy with this approach?
Sarah Jenkins 11:50
Well, I gotta have horse. I mean, I got it. That’s kind of a challenging thing. You know, you all one little part. Yeah. Although I will tell you through the years of creating this, I have had to get really creative and where I went and how I went. And so in terms of equine-assisted EMDR, specifically, yes, it’s important to have animals that are physically and emotionally sound well cared for having a therapeutic space where just as in an office based setting, you could maintain clinical confidentiality, there’s a lot of safety factors involved in terms of making sure that folks are able to have choices in terms of how they interact with horses, we have a lot of liability coverages that we need to have as those who provide equine-assisted interactions that go beyond malpractice. Obviously, for physical liability. There’s also a complexity in terms of the fact that it’s often in our field of providing animal-assisted interactions, the the standard is often to work in partnership. So for example, in this model, I asked there would be an EMDR therapist and an animal handler, they can, there are ways to do it where you’re not. But that’s kind of the ideal, though, again, not the only way. And so it can be a lot to track, if you are someone who is not working in partnership, because you’re tracking the horse, you’re tracking the EMDR, you’re tracking safety, you’re tracking the environment you’re in, so you have to have a lot of different data, pay attention to a lot of things. So, you know, when I get people who come to these trainings, I just asked people to start really small to start with a few clients, or maybe find a place where you can contract to provide some work or really do it in a small way until they incrementally build a program. They want to do it.
Kim Howard 13:33
Right, where you’re not where the stable are available, but you’re not necessarily the owner of the stables.
Sarah Jenkins 13:38
Yeah, yeah. And I have that now. But you know, what I do even in my practice now is I I’ll get a lot of folks that know about equine-assisted EMDR work, for example. And maybe their clients are stuck. So they’re EMDR therapists, they have clients that are stuck, and maybe some stabilization, they needed a greater level of stabilization. They’ll contract with me, they’ll come do some sessions to increase stabilization and an equine assisted EMDR manner, and then they’ll get sent back to their primary EMDR therapist to continue the work. So there are creative ways that we can do that. So if say an EMDR therapist is interested in that it doesn’t necessarily mean they have to suddenly go out on a horse get a barn, you know, have horse bales of hay in their therapy. Right?
Kim Howard 14:19
Yeah, that’s, I mean, because, you know, I’ve had friends who’ve had horses, and that is not….
Sarah Jenkins 14:23
That is a commitment.
Kim Howard 14:24
Not a cheap prospect financially. It’s that’s very expensive and meaningful and proper barn and location and land and not everybody’s in that situation, you know? Yeah, that’s a great, that’s a great suggestion. Thank you. How do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR therapist?
Sarah Jenkins 14:43
No pun intended the white elephant in the room. I mean, yeah, because I’m a white woman. And when I go to a grocery store, or when I go to store, and I shop retail, I don’t have to think about the security guard watching me because of my skin color. Although you can’t tell from the accent because it’s gone, I actually emigrated to the states when I was a kid. So I was born in Great Britain and I emigrated when I was about seven or years or so from north Wales. And, you know, I immigrated with this cute little Welsh accent that you know, contributed due at the time, when I look back, you know, a lot of bullying a lot of trauma for me, the reason I mentioned that is because it really taught me the importance of looking at the conflict between wanting to be part of the majority part wanting to be accepted, wanting to be in as survival, but at the same time, just how important it was for me to keep my culture and there was this push and pull between the dominant culture and also the perspective that I needed to keep who I was. So what this has to do with this question is that I think about that, I can’t even tell you how many times and like a ton of matter work on it in my own EMDR therapy. And it really reminds me that, you know, I’m this white woman who’s working with horses, and I recognize that I’m very privileged, and that there was a time when I didn’t recognize that I would have this perspective that, you know, I was an immigrant, yes, of course. But then once my accent left, I still had the benefit of being the white kid, right? And the reason that’s important is because as I’ve really been humbled by my lack of knowledge, and how important it was, for me to really still look at, you know, you have it, you’re still a white kid, and, you know, what you had was still privileged, even though you were different, I bring that humility in, because I have to have every interaction, whether it’s a student, whether it’s a client, you know, and really be aware of that privilege and not be afraid to call it out. And I think that even in my work with horses, horses really demand presence and clarity, and you’ve got to be able to have your own integrity. And I think that is something that I’m really trying to bring into my EMDR trainings to is about anti racism and being willing to talk about those things and trying to be a safe space for that. No.
Kim Howard 16:04
Or wondering if I’m gonna, you know, cause trouble. I think some people think that just because you’re aware of it means that, you know, that means that you’re, I think to be aware of it is not a bad thing. Because I think some people take that, and they get very defensive about white privilege, or that kind of thing. And I’m like, ‘Well, you know, have you have you tried going out in another way, you know, if you’ve ever been out and you know, if you if you really think about it, if you if you’ve ever gone out as a man or a woman or somebody of a different culture, you would experience different things. And I think just recognizing that at a base level would be a lot easier to have those conversations about privilege and, and why it matters and how some people are impacted by it more than others.
Sarah Jenkins 17:51
And I don’t have to think about other things that other humans do that shouldn’t have to think about these things in terms of the day to day, I mean, I give you an example. I went on a I was actually doing the equine- assisted EMDR training in the Deep South four months ago. And I went and I toured around, you know, a region that was rooted in slavery by history. And I really wanted to learn more about it. And I remember calling on this, I mean, I laugh, but not just with horror, as I say this, I remember being on one of the tours, you know, the toy around town, it was in Savannah, Georgia, you know, the person who was doing the tour and mentioned, you know, we have a slavery history, but we don’t really like to talk about that in us. We’re not proud of that, and just kept on moving through and I wanted to I was just like, that’s why I’m here. I need to understand about that. And I was horrified. By the way it was just brushed over. And yet of course it was and so it speaks to that.
Kim Howard 18:46
Yeah. And it’s because people are uncomfortable about it, ya know, and I, I feel like sometimes those hard conversations have to be had, actually, most of the time those hard, hard conversations have to be had, so that there’s an understanding of why so that history literally does not repeat itself, right. There’s, I don’t even know who said the quote, but there’s a quote about you know, if you don’t, if you don’t learn from history, you’re bound to repeat it right? And so, not talking about it doesn’t make it go away. It doesn’t make me better, or it doesn’t make it easier on anybody. But you need to, you need to explain to people I mean, I grew up in the Deep South, my dad was military, and, you know, they stick military bases in the middle of nowhere. So we we spent a lot of time moving around basically in the same region as I was growing up. And you learn about that at a very young age, about the history of the Civil War and what happened in this country and so parts of it but you learn almost a civics class way, right, in a history class way.
Sarah Jenkins 19:39
Very yeah, top level, right.
Kim Howard 19:44
If you come from another part of the country that didn’t have slavery, you you may not talk about that phase of this of our history as Americans and so there’s a lot you don’t know. And we all should know that. It’s very important.
Sarah Jenkins 20:00
I’m glad you asked that question for the listeners.
Kim Howard 20:02
Do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource that you’d like to suggest?
Sarah Jenkins 20:06
Sure. So the one I had actually sent you. It’s actually a PDF that I created during the pandemic, as we all were kind of grappling with the fact that we were needing to recalibrate around doing EMDR therapy online. Of course, there had been many leaders that had already been working towards that. I know that but in terms of it tipping the tipping point where the pandemic really demanded that we recalibrate, I found I had a lot of colleagues a lot of consultees that really were struggling with trying to do grounding skills with telehealth. So I created this little PDF that has grounding skills for how to help people when we’re in telehealth setting. So that’s what I’ve given you. I also have a recommendation, there’s a on Amazon Prime, there’s a documentary documentary is called, ‘The Box: Out of the Impossible.’ And I’m probably gonna start crying because this is one of the hardest things for me in this work. This is actually a documentary that a former client, and of course, I have permission to share this. And I am doing that now former client created as part of her surviving her history of ritual abuse. And she worked with me from an equine- assisted EMDR prospective as well as a myriad of therapies throughout her healing work. And it’s a great 45-minute documentary about healing from complex trauma, dissociation, and I think it’s a real encouraging video for therapists and their clients to watch. I think it’s two bucks on Amazon Prime. And it’s worth way more than that, I would strongly recommend that as a resource as well.
Kim Howard 21:34
That’s great. It’s very brave of her to share that story. I think there’s a lot of shame with things that happened to people that they had no control over. It happened to them. They didn’t perpetuate that and to share it in such a public way. I mean, congratulations to her. So that’s wonderful.
Sarah Jenkins 21:50
One of my greatest teachers. Yeah. Glad to share that.
Kim Howard 21:53
So, we touched on this a little bit earlier in the conversation and in your upcoming ‘Go With That’ (magazine) article in the fall 2022 issue, but what would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about animal assisted or equine assisted therapy?
Sarah Jenkins 22:08
I think it’s important to know that animals get to have a voice in the process. You know, animals, just like humans have a window of tolerance. They’re sentient beings, they, they have opinions about experiences. And and I think that’s really important, as opposed to thinking of a horse, or a dog being a tool towards being used in therapy. I think it’s, I always say that we partner with animals. And I do that very consciously. For that reason, I think it’s like it was mentioned before, really important to understand and find out what the therapeutic perspective is that the animal assisted provider is utilizing, are they not a therapist? And are they teaching, you know, maybe they’re teaching skills, coping skills, and maybe they’re not a therapist, and that’s okay, if that’s what they’re choosing to do. And that’s within the scope of their practice, I think it’s also important to recognize that any kind of animal-assisted work, or especially equine- assisted because there’s so much, there’s so many variables that play with equine, but to really know that it doesn’t have to pick up a lot of dust, you know, in the field of animal-assisted therapies, and especially equine-assisted interactions, there can be a real kind of pressure about what’s the activity I need to do with the horse? Or what’s the activity I need to do with the dog. And I see this in therapy in general, what I need to do with my client, what am I, what am I what am I trying to say, and we get all this cortex focus, because sometimes we’re uncomfortable just being present with the client. So I think what’s important for the community know, overall is that doesn’t have to kick up a lot of dust, we don’t have to, we still have to have a clinical perspective and know how we’re seeing those interactions. But don’t force it. Don’t try and make the animal do something, to meet a clinical goal sometimes look at the animals and what they’re offering, and see how that helps you approach your clinical goals. And if we come in with that mindset, a little bit more organically that way we can utilize what the horses or an animal is offering and listen to their wisdom as opposed to trying to make things happen. But sometimes animals offer things that we go, Holy cow, I can’t believe that happen. But I know the client doesn’t have readiness to process that right now. So I’m gonna have to maybe hold it back a little bit until I have clinically the readiness to do that, you know, so, always being aware of where we are in the work and having a reason why we’re doing what we’re doing.
Kim Howard 24:34
Thank you. So I might know the answer to this, but so, if you weren’t an EMDR therapist what would you be?
Sarah Jenkins 24:41
Well, believe it or not, it’s not a horse trainer.
Kim Howard 24:43
Sarah Jenkins 24:44
Were you gonna say that?
Kim Howard 24:45
Would it be jockey? Would it be horse owner?
Sarah Jenkins 24:48
Kim Howard 24:49
I feel like it will be something related. But maybe I’m totally off base.
Sarah Jenkins 24:53
Well, you know, funny enough, It’s not. If I wasn’t an EMDR therapist, I’d be teaching yoga more.
Kim Howard 24:57
Sarah Jenkins 24:58
So yoga has been in my life as long as EMDR has as long as horses have, while it’s not true horses have been there longer than EMDR. I mean, I was on a horse, probably six months age, but EMDR and yoga parallel with me over the last 2021 years. And so then I have my teacher training. And I love that. And I did that for my own personal growth more than anything. But I think if I wasn’t an EMDR therapist, I would probably be bringing yoga more to horse men and women. So I love the relationship between horsemanship and people’s ability to be present with themselves. I mean, this is what to me, equine-assisted EMDR is all about. So horses have this ability just to be present. And to me, that’s really what you’re always about. And so I’d probably be bringing yoga to more horse, folks, that’s probably what I do.
Kim Howard 25:46
That’s, that’s a great answer. I love yoga. I’ve been doing it since 2010.
Sarah Jenkins 25:49
It keeps me sane.
Kim Howard 25:50
And I tell anybody who will listen yoga will change your life and your body.
Sarah Jenkins 25:54
Kim Howard 25:55
You just have to give it a try. And nobody unless they’re just somebody who happens to be super hyper flexible at the get go, nobody can touch their toes when they first start yoga. So don’t get frustrated that you can’t do it properly. It’ll come.
Sarah Jenkins 26:07
Kim Howard 26:07
And so yeah, it’s been a it’s been a great discovery.
Sarah Jenkins 26:11
It’s really powerful. And it’s, you know, the thing I often say is yoga always tells me the difference between what’s real and what’s not. And horses do the same thing for me. So I can have some story in my head about what I think is going on with me that day. And I can take it out into the back pasture, and I get clarity very quickly about what’s really true and what’s not. And it’s the same thing when I hit the mat.
Kim Howard 26:34
is there anything else you’d like to add?
Sarah Jenkins 26:36
No, I just I say no. And then I have an answer. No, I really want to express it’s funny, I didn’t realize I was gonna say this until I did. You know, I brought equine- assisted EMDR to the EMDR community about 11 years ago. And then the world of EMDR. You know, I’m brought to worlds here. There’s the world of EMDR therapy and those a world of bringing animal assisted or interactions and therapy. And I had to kind of make a decision about where I where I put it first. And I brought this protocol to the EMDR community first. I brought to the EMDR conferences, several through the years, Europe, Canada, etc. And I was terrified to bring it to the EMDR community because I thought they’re gonna think I’m this weird friggin horse woman, what the heck does she know? About that again? Yeah. What does this have to do with anything? And then, you know, at the end of the day, I never forget being at a conference. It was at the Denver conference when I was speaking there. And I had a brief interaction with Francine and I, I remember just thinking, ‘Oh, they welcome this.’ And it wasn’t weird. Well, it’s got its own weirdness to it. You know, it’s unusual. But the EMDR community is so willing to listen to new ideas, because we all just believe in EMDR. And we believe in the power of it to change people’s lives. And we love the creativity and Franciscans emphasis on research, all these kinds of things. So I guess what I really like to add is just deep gratitude. Because for those of you who have seen me speak or have come to my trainings, you’re still doing really good EMDR and at the end of the day, that’s the most important thing to me is that we’re taking care of our horses to get more clients and still doing viable, clinically appropriate sound EMDR. I’m really grateful for the EMDR community for being so supportive of this work as they have something.
Kim Howard 28:17
That’s a perfect answer. Great way to end the podcast. Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jenkins 28:22
You’re very welcome, Kim. Thanks for having me.
Kim Howard 28:24
This has been the lLet’s Talk EMDR Podcast with our guest, Sara Jenkins. Visit www.emdria.org for more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our Find an EMDR Therapist Directory more than 13,000 therapists available. Our award-winning blog, Focal Point, offers information on EMDR and is an open resource. Thank you for listening.
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Howard, K. (Host). (2023, January 1). Pairing EMDR and Equine-Assisted Therapy with Sarah Jenkins, MC, LPC, CPsychol (Season 2, No. 1) [Audio podcast episode]. In Let’s Talk EMDR podcast. EMDR International Association. https://www.emdria.org/letstalkemdrpodcast/
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