Kim Howard 00:05
Welcome to the Let’s Talk EMDR Podcast brought to you by the EMDR International Association or EMDRIA. I am your host Kim Howard. In honor of February marking Black History Month, we are interviewing Black EMDR therapists. In this episode, we are talking with EMDR certified therapist and consultant in training Marcken Volmy. Marcken is with Bedrock Counseling in Boynton Beach, Florida where he specializes in providing EMDR therapy for men and clients with attachment disorders. Let’s get started. Today we are speaking with EMDR, certified therapist and consultant in training Marcken Volmy. About EMDR therapy, attachment disorders and men. Thank you, Mark, and for being here today. We are so happy that you said yes.

Marcken Volmy 00:48
Thank you, Kim. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

Kim Howard 00:51
So let’s start with an easy questions. Tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming an EMDR therapist.

Marcken Volmy 01:00
Okay, my journey and becoming an EMDR therapist actually made a career change. I taught middle school special needs kids for about 10 years. And in the process halfway through, I realized I started making the connection. My kids are dealing with all these comorbidity issues, because their parents have or there’s some level of neglect or some level of trauma. Of course, I didn’t know all the terminology yet because I wasn’t a therapist, but I knew something was off. And in my interest at the time was already peaking for therapy. And then from that standpoint, while I was still teaching, I started to slowly but surely make the transition over to the mental health side. And everything. It was like an a seamless transition. And from there after becoming a therapist, I’ve had my own spare shifts, unresolved childhood trauma that I needed to work through everything from sexual abuse as a little kid when I was in college, I was robbed at gunpoint. So I had really bad PTSD. And I couldn’t put language to what was wrong with me because I was too ashamed and too embarrassed to tell other people what was going on. I mean, I couldn’t go to my printer head as I turned off, when I think of this, and this thing here triggers me and I never feel safe. You know, in most guys circles, they will look at you like toughen up man up, quote unquote. So I didn’t really have a safe space to really disclose what’s happening internally. And when I made the transition over to becoming a therapist, I eventually said, You know what, I need to go ahead and see a therapist. And I didn’t eat, I just randomly chose a therapist who happened to be trained in EMDR therapy. And after I kid you not, it must have been like three to five sessions, I saw a dramatic difference for the better. And I said, Wow, I want to learn everything about this. And from that standpoint, I started to do a deep dive on everything related to trauma, EMDR therapy, and the rest of its history.

Kim Howard 02:55
That’s that’s a fantastic story. I mean, you’ve taught me so many things there. And but I think the general theme, I think of our podcast today, because we’re going to talk about the male population is that men don’t think they need therapy, or they think they’re not, you know, a man if they have to go to therapy. And I’m, I’m pretty sure most most women don’t think that way like most of them and don’t think oh, I’m not as much of a woman as I could be because I go to a therapist. And so interesting, that dichotomy that happens between the two genders. And so I’m glad you mentioned that and, and I am very glad that you found a solution to all of your your trauma.

Marcken Volmy 03:38
Thank you.

Kim Howard 03:39
I don’t think any of us are really trauma free. At some point in someone’s life, somewhere down the road, something has happened, whether it’s minor issue or significant issue. And so it’s good to hear stories that people have found some relief, and We’re especially pleased when they tell us that EMDR worked for them, you know, and I because I run our social media accounts, and I do get probably on a weekly basis, people testifying sort of like, hey, EMDR therapy saved my life. This is a great organization, make sure you go, you know, find your therapist here or whatever. And so it’s good to hear that from awesome. The clients and patients. Yeah, it makes you feel good when you work in an organization that does help some people who help other people. So it’s great.

Marcken Volmy 04:22
Absolutely. And I thought it was pretty cool; me having an opportunity to be on both sides of the couch as a client. And now, as a therapist, I get so excited seeing that joy on my clients faces when the light bulb comes on and as their rational thought is dealt with is I never get out of that.

Kim Howard 04:40
Yeah, yeah, that’s what a great feeling that is. So what is your favorite part of working with EMDR and attachment focused work?

Marcken Volmy 04:50
I think my favorite part is helping to repair the insecure attachments that are formed in childhood from either things that happened to or things that we didn’t get get, whether that be things relating to neglect, and helping them, you know, for me to tell a client on the onset that you know what, there are different tools that we could utilize, to where, although you never had that nurturance. And that protection, you will, you will fill it in real time during the session, I almost have to just keep that part to myself and let them experience it. And just to see the reaction and emotions that come, it’s almost as if we teleport in a time machine and go back in time to childhood. And they’re literally filling that protection, that that Meg, that nurturance that they never got as a child and seeing that it’s almost as if I’m helping to heal that little boy and little girl inside of each of my clients, so that they could come to a place of resolution as an adult.

Kim Howard 05:50
Yeah, I think that I mean, it’s, I have two children who are now adults were 25 and 22. And I just think I mean, we had a pretty average, you know, family, right, we had a pretty average normal, healthy, as healthy as you can be a family and I just think it’s really heartbreaking when when, you know, children don’t have any control over their environment. And for them to have things happen to them. That can be horrific, not just for them at that time, but then later in life, you know, and for them not to be able to move forward, because it’s something not that they did on their own decision they made not a choice, they made that something that somebody else chose for them. For me, it’s the most heartbreaking thing ever, because they’re the most vulnerable of the population, right, the young and, and the elderly, but it’s just it’s so it’s so I feel so good about here, therapists who work with children, and they get it, you know, they get that, that that influences them as adults.

Marcken Volmy 06:48
Absolutely. And it’s also heartbreaking seeing an adult person still feel that fault for something that happened to them as a child. That’s, that’s a devastating.

Kim Howard 07:00
So let’s talk a little bit about why we’re here today. What successes have you seen using EMDR therapy for men who have attachment disorders?

07:09
Okay, great question. I just want to preface that when I initially went into private practice a couple years ago, I didn’t have like this banner, say, ‘Hey, if you’re a guy come to me,’ right.

Kim Howard 07:22
But that doesn’t work in marketing?

Marcken Volmy 07:26
But naturally, it just naturally started to happen. And I think, for me, the biggest success is number one, get an opportunity to destigmatize mental health, especially in the African American community if we live in, it’s getting better now. But for the longest time, we’ve looked at mental health as ‘Oh, you don’t tell anybody your business, or you can’t afford it, you keep everything in house, you pull yourself up by your bootstraps, we’ll figure it out.’ Because our construct of mental health for a long time with someone who’s psychotic out of their mind, they need to be they need to be Baker Acted or institutionalized because they’re just, they don’t know what’s going on. Right. So there was all just stigma of if I went and sought a therapist, people automatically assume I’m crazy. So mental health was always shunned. Granted today, in 2022, we’re seeing a drastic paradigm shift for the better, and that’s good. But just seeing men normalize vulnerability, I need help I need I need to connect with someone, I need language for the things that are going internally inside of me and to tear down someone or social construct. If you’re a man and you’re strong, you need to figure out on your own, that strength, strength is pretending nothing’s wrong, and pretending you have it all together, even if you’re dying on the inside. And just helping to reframe a lot of those irrational beliefs and thoughts. And say, we’re all broken, we were we were all in need of some level of have a safe space. And we need we need space holders, to help us to think through when to navigate through all little different nuances of things that have traumatize us from childhood, and even some things that have that have affected us, even in our present day life.

Kim Howard 09:09
It’s a great perspective. And there’s also a distrust among the African American community, rightfully so. Just in the medical profession in general, from…

Marcken Volmy 09:19
Yeah.

Kim Howard 09:19
experiments that have been done and, you know, all these studies that are, you know, come out about pain levels in terms of, you know, not giving medication to patients because of their race or ethnicity in which for me, I mean, I’m a woman and I’m white, so I guess I would never have to deal with that. Right. But to me, it’s unconscionable that somebody would just assume or think that because somebody was a different skin color that they had a higher tolerance level – pain level. I just, I don’t even know where that that idea came from. But I’m glad it’s going away because that’s ridiculous. And so you know, it’s it’s, it’s it’s good that people are realizing that Yeah, number one, just because you go to a therapist doesn’t mean that you’re, you’re so far down the you know, you’re down the road and mental illness situation, you know, you’re not psychotic, you’re not you don’t get institutionalized. It’s not that kind of situation. It’s simply, you just need some help, you know, exactly you need, you need a professional to help you. I mean, your friends are good, your family’s good, and, but you need somebody who can really help you solve whatever your issues are. And so that’s, it’s really good, especially when, you know, and so yeah, that’s great.

Marcken Volmy 10:34
Kim, if you don’t mind, I did want to tell one quick success story of a client, who came to me had a lot of experience a lot of physical abuse, from its earliest age four all the way up until adulthood. And because of that, this young man was struggling, he was newly married, he was struggling in his marriage, he was always angry. And I kid you not it, it must, might have taken me about six or seven EMDR sessions before he finally cracked a smile. And then when they were in session, I say, ‘Did you see that? And he said, ‘What?’ I said, ‘You smiled.’ And he said, ‘I did not; stop playing.’ I said, ‘Yeah, you smiled.’ And surely, but and over time, eventually, he process all of his issues. But that to me, the reason I was such a success story, that the the things he was processing in therapy was so horrific, a lot of complex trauma, that, that just to see that transformation, it just, it just stuck with me. And now to know that this young man is able to have better emotional regulation, he’s, he’s happier he’s thriving in life, doesn’t mean that these memories automatically disappeared, or he no longer remembers them. But he has a level of agency now to where he can move on and thrive in his personal life.

Kim Howard 11:56
Yeah. And he knows how to deal with it. And if he ever chooses to become a father, he won’t recreate the home life that he came from, because he has the coping skills he needs to manage that anger and manage those issues. Because there’s that whole thing about generational trauma continues to happen or the use of situations and then the child goes up and then abuses their own children. And so, because they don’t know any different, that’s wonderful that you could help him because in helping him you’re helping the next generation as well. Absolutely. It’s a beautiful story. It’s a beautiful, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Are there any message you would like to bust about EMDR therapy? And men I’m sure that women listening are yes, they’re like, please give us the Bible of information or the top 10 list. But in all in all joking aside, what do you want to talk about with with men and EMDR therapy and any kind of myths?

Marcken Volmy 12:50
I think there’s this misnomer that men are reluctant to opening up. And they don’t have anything to say when the truth of the matter is, they have a lot to say that I think the key element that’s usually missing is they want they need to feel like they have a safe space. And from there, they could take them picked up, put their armor down and just let loose. And I think one of the things I try to foster, I don’t try to impress my male clients with how much therapy jargon I know my my pedigree, my credential, I really hone in on rapport building and of course resourcing before starting EMDR. But in doing that, you know, we connect, whether it be sports, something, personally, some type of hobby, or just something that is of interest to them. Because in doing that, it really helps to foster that safe space. So by the time we start EMDR, even when things get difficult and a little bit uncomfortable, they feel that sense of I’ve already made a connection with my therapist, there’s no turning back now. So I would say that any guy out there who’s listening or any woman who’s trying to listen on behalf of her, her significant other or family member, men actually do want to open up that the but they need to feel like they have a safe space in order to do so.

Kim Howard 14:09
That’s, that’s great piece of advice. And we’ve said this often, we say on social media, and we’ve said it amongst ourselves that finding a therapist is a lot like dating, you know, you really unfortunately, it’s not one of those situations where you kind of go in and you get a quick fix, and it’s gonna, you know, it’s a long term relationship. So you need to be comfortable with that person. It’s one thing for you to go to emergency room, the doctor fixes your appendicitis, right? But that’s a one time stop. And it doesn’t matter if you like the doctor or not as long as they’re competent. But if you’re in a therapy situation, you really have to feel comfortable with that person. And you really have to believe that they are doing what’s best for you. Otherwise, it’s not going to work and it’s very much unfortunately like dating so for all the listeners out there, we’ve said it before we’ll say it again, don’t don’t give up. If you found a therapist and you’re it’s not working or something’s not quite right If you know, you can find another you have permission to find a therapist. And so I think that we need to give ourselves that that permission as well to go ahead and pivot and find somebody who’s going to do do the healing that you want to have done. And so

Marcken Volmy 15:16
That’s a great analogy, by the way; it is a lot like dating.

Kim Howard 15:21
And I can hear that I can hear the eye rolls and groans now. When we say, ‘Oh, the dating world is so bad. But here, it is rough out there.’ And so I say a lot of times, I’m glad I’m not in the market anymore.

Marcken Volmy 15:36
Yeah, likewise, yeah, it can be rough.

Kim Howard 15:39
Yeah, I have some single friends, ooof the stories they tell. So, are their specific complexities or difficulties with using EMDR therapy for men, for men who have attachment disorders, or both?

Marcken Volmy 15:53
I think one of major complexities, and I see it also with my female clients is dissociation. Right? There are parts that, you know, we, I tried to apply a lot of psychoeducation explaining how one of the results of our trauma is the dissociation that occurs, and it forms these different parts. And with men, I tend to see that part of shame that rises to the surface to, you know, because when a guy speaking to another guy, there’s always this even if we just met for the first time, this is natural response stuff, I don’t want to seem weak to you. So they automatically put that armor in front of them and, and try to portray themselves in a way until we built the report in a way that seems strong and, and noble. And normalizing for them that and given them education, the educational piece to help them see that, for the longest time, this is how their brain has been attempting to protect them to make them feel somewhat safe in their body. And I try to, I try to applaud in a way to say you’ve shown tremendous resiliency thus far without a therapist, you should commend yourself that you’ve been surviving for this long without a therapist. But these are some things that we need to reframe, and we need to think through and in doing so I try to move, I try to move shame out the way to let them know that this is a judgment free zone. My only concern is being you thrive in every every sphere of your every sphere of life. And in doing so you don’t have to worry about having a therapist that’s here to overly criticize you as if you’re on America’s Got Talent, and we’re going to give you a score.

Kim Howard 17:34
That’s a good, that’s a good example that you provided about how men when they meet other men, they tend to put on this. It’s a bravado kind of thing, you know, and I don’t know if that harkens back to the ancient days, cavemen, and people had to like fight for their territories and the food and protect in their tribe from, you know, wild animals and other intruders and invaders. I don’t know if that’s, I guess that’s still coded on men’s DNA, because I don’t…

Marcken Volmy 18:01
It is.

Kim Howard 18:01
I think that women do a little bit of that, but I don’t think they do it as much as as men do. And so it’s good that you when you’re in a therapist situation, or therapy room, that you have a realization that it’s okay for you to let all that down and just be open about things and it’s a lot harder than ever. It’s easier said than done, I guess. But yeah, it’s, it’s good that you mention that, to remind me to remind the male population, that’s okay. And and yeah, you’re right to give each other thumbs up that you’ve survived this long without anti men, any mental health help. And so, you know, nobody, nobody wishes that they had any kind of trauma to deal with. But unfortunately, sometimes that life just hands us that and so we have to learn. Absolutely. So it’s not your fault, but it’s good that you’re getting the help you need. So how do you practice cultural humility as an EMDR? Therapist?

Marcken Volmy 19:00
Well, first of all, I think one of the biggest ways I practice cultural humility is I try to educate my guy friends in our circles, there might have been jokes that were okay for us to say, like, I’m 42. But when I was in my 20s, or in college, it was okay to say, but, but after seeing how some of those comments can be traumatizing or uncomfortable to other ethnic and racial groups, I do a lot of psychoeducation I do a lot of we need to be mindful of that because we can offend such and such things of that nature. And another thing is if if I’m interacting with someone of another culture that I don’t know much about, although on the therapist, I want to be the student, teach me what’s appropriate, what’s acceptable, because the more I know, the more I can honor your cultural background and the more I can let you know that I want to try I want to If I want to treat your culture the same way I treat your trauma story, when you come to me for a therapy session, I want to honor it and handle it with extreme care. Because I know this is something that’s very important to you.

Kim Howard 20:12
I think that’s a good way to approach it. Thank you.

Marcken Volmy 20:16
You’re welcome.

Kim Howard 20:16
Do you have a favorite free EMDR related resource he would suggest either for the public or other EMDR therapists?

Marcken Volmy 20:23
Well, that kind of have a couple if you don’t mind me…

Kim Howard 20:26
No, I don’t mind at all.

Marcken Volmy 20:28
There’s this really cool podcast, I started listening to last year called ‘Notice That Podcast.’ It’s an EMDR podcast, of course, you guys EMDRIA, you have a really good one. And another component of EMDRIA that I really like, is the community. I think it started last year where all several thousands EMDR therapists were all on the network. Because if you have a question, you just throw it out there, and multiple therapists could respond or sometimes one, but usually you’ll get four or five answers, depending on the topic. And just to note, I have that arsenal of resources at your disposal. 24/7, I think it’s amazing. Of course, there’s this other website, EMDR consulting.com, they’re really gonna give it out just free resources, a small little audio clip, like sample of how different things along the eight phases of EMDR should look. But for the most part, I think the biggest resources are really going to come down to if you are an EMDR trained therapist, what does your consulting circle look like? Who are you in consultation right now, it is something you’re thinking about. And I’ve also found a lot of help with Facebook groups. I’m on one right now call, I’m probably butchering the name online EMDR therapy, there is another one for clinicians of color is called, I believe the title is Black EMDR Clinicians is it’s probably about 800 or so of us therapists that are on there. And this is really, it’s really cool to just hear bounce resources off each other, but also awesome. Provide a safe space to deal with the micro aggressions within the field and outside of the field as well. So I think that’s pretty cool. Yes.

Kim Howard 22:16
That’s good. And what we’ll do is you want you found the exact name, just email me it to me, and I will include it in the description of the podcast, so people can click on it and access that if they need it. But I will go back to your comment about EMDRIA. I mean, I’ve, I’ve worked in association management and pretty much my whole career. So about 25 plus years. And so that is usually the number one resource of why members join an organization is for the connection with the other professionals who do whatever they do fill in the blank, this happens to be EMDR therapists, right EMDRIA. And so that access to those, those brains and those experiences, and that those educations are, are crucial to EMDR therapists who either are starting out or mid level career, or even quite frankly, the people who are super experienced because it gives them an opportunity to perhaps be more of a teacher or a mentor, not officially or maybe officially depending on what happens, but gives them an opportunity also to share what they know, and sort of give back and to the community that they’ve been a part of for a long time. And so I’m glad to hear you mentioned that that you find that useful, you know, from a membership organization. That’s, that’s good to know. And then notice that podcast I have, we have heard of that. And so that’s a great resource. I mean, we’re, you know, we’re not certainly not the only podcast out there and talks about EMDR therapy, and now but if people are getting their information, and it’s good information, and it’s correct information, you know, we’re just happy that they’re finding it. So thank you for sharing.

Marcken Volmy 23:47
You’re welcome. No problem.

Kim Howard 23:49
So what would you like people outside of the EMDR community to know about attachment disorders?

Marcken Volmy 23:54
I think what I would like people in the outside to know is number one, I’ve never met anyone who didn’t who didn’t have either one or more insecure attachment issue. I think we all we’re all dealing with something from our caregivers or parents from childhood that we’re trying to work work our way through a number two is that you can definitely kill and and I do air quotes with the word healing. I don’t want to make it seem like you could compartmentalize a mental health, illness or issue and never have to deal with it again. When I say the word healing, I mean, progressive journey of you improving and recovering your life. Think of it as being a lifelong convalescence. You’re, you’re you’re working through some things but you’re getting better you’re seeing growth, we can heal without with our insecure attachment issues. There’s a lot of room for growth. The key thing is to find a therapist, if if you are dealing with attachment issues, is to find a therapist who’s somewhat knowledgeable in that area. And sometimes if you’re just doing this thing entered a phases of EMDR. Even if a therapist, an EMDR clinician wouldn’t quote unquote, consider themselves to be an attachment style therapist of EMDR. If they show fidelity to the eight phases, you’re going to go into here with your, whatever insecure attachment issue that you’re trying to work through. So I would like to really push a lot of encouragement and, and positivity that you can improve wherever you’re at whether it’s an anxious attachment and avoidant attachment or fearful attachment. There’s so much room for growth, if you decide to journey with us on this, on this endeavor of EMDR therapy.

Kim Howard 25:37
Great words, we like to hear that. Thank you.

Marcken Volmy 25:39
No problem. No problem.

Kim Howard 25:41
If you weren’t an EMDR therapist, what would you be?

Marcken Volmy 25:45
If I weren’t an EMDR therapist I would be I know, this is only a movie, but I would love to be that character, ‘The Equalizer’ and Denzel Washington plays the character in that movie.

Kim Howard 25:58
Yes.

Marcken Volmy 25:59
And all the reason I say that is not that I’m promoting violence, but he does to the bad guy what I wish could have happened for my clients, when they tell me their stories. I said, I wish you would have had an equalizer in your life to protect you, from all this horror that you had to go through as an adult or either as a child. Yeah.

Kim Howard 26:17
Yeah. He’s a great actor. And that’s a great movie. And the series with Queen Latifah is very good.

Marcken Volmy 26:24
Yeah, it’s amazing.

Kim Howard 26:25
Yeah. It’s good to see if it’s interesting to the twist to see a female in that lead roll like that as protector. I like that. I like that.

Marcken Volmy 26:33
Yeah. But on a serious note, all jokes aside, I know, that’s fiction. I think I would be a gardener. And I know, guys are listening to me like, Hmm, because I find so many parallels with being a therapist in gardening, when the patience it takes, the how the setting, the soil has to be right and so much attention to details. It reminds me a lot of therapy. My wife got me in the garden two years ago, and it’s like a hobby. I never thought it’d be but it is.

Kim Howard 27:05
Are you a vegetable gardener or flower gardener or both?

Marcken Volmy 27:09
Vegetable.

Kim Howard 27:10
Vegetable. Got it.

Marcken Volmy 27:11
I’m really big on grown grown. What I eat, yes.

Kim Howard 27:14
Yeah, we do that as well. My husband started out a couple of years back. And there’s something very satisfying about starting the seeds or planting the plants. And then a few weeks later, or a couple of months later, all of a sudden you’ve got fruit. Fruit, I mean vegetable, but you’ve got vegetables growing on there. And you’re like, huh, I grew that? That’s pretty freaking amazing. Look what I did.

Marcken Volmy 27:38
It is. It is.

Kim Howard 27:38
Yeah, yeah. But yeah, you’re right, it is a good analogy for the therapy world: planting the seeds, nurturing it, letting it grow, giving it space, light, all that good stuff. That’s great. That’s a great, that’s a great position to be in. Is there anything else you would like to add Marcken?

Marcken Volmy 28:01
I think the only thing else I would like to add is that no matter where you’re at, on your mental health journey, whether you haven’t started or you’re in the middle, or you’ve recently started, keep going keep moving. If you have unresolved trauma EMDR, although it’s not the only trauma modality is the only one that I can really speak on, because it’s the one that I’m training on, it works. I would I would sometimes see on different like, YouTube videos about EMDR, where in the comment section people say didn’t work for me, it didn’t work for me. And I think what they’re saying is, they didn’t find the right therapist to really deal with the deeper issues at play. But for the most part, but jority of people I know who’ve who’ve experienced EMDR. Even if they’re still working through their issues, they’ve seen quite a bit of improvement. So I would encourage anyone if you’re thinking about given EMDR try, definitely try it out. Yeah, I mean, it can’t make anything worse. And I think you’ll see a lot of progress. If you were to if you were to give EMDR tracks. Yeah.

Kim Howard 29:05
That’s a great way to close out the podcast. Thank you, Marcken and for being on.

Marcken Volmy 29:10
You’re welcome. No, thank you. Appreciate it.

Kim Howard 29:13
This has been the Let’s Talk EMDR Podcast with our guest Marcken Volmy . Visit www.emdria.org for more information about EMDR therapy, or to use our Find an EMDR Therapist Directory, more than 14,000 therapists available. Our award-winning blog, Focal Point, offers information on EMDR and is an open resource. Thank you for listening.